Are Bulgars Tatars or is there heritage a Tatar/slavic mix

Are Bulgars Tatars or is there heritage a Tatar/slavic mix

Bulgars on here have attempted to denigrate Macedonians by asking whether they are Serb or Bulgarian. It's an illegitimate question. The real question should be are Bulgars Tatars or a mix of Tatars and Slavs?


  • edited February 17
    Since there are no many haplogroups in Bulgarians which could be described as "Tatar", no, they are not Tatars. Mostly they're Thrachian and partly Slavoid, becouse of their R1a-M458. 

    By the way, can someone post Bulgarian DNA project there?
  • Tatar is a generic term for many different groups of peoples.

    Kazan Tatars, Mishar Tatars, Kasim Tatars, Siberian Tatars, Astrakhan Tatars, Teptiar Tatars, Kryashens (Christian Tatars), Lipka Tatars (Poland, Lithuania, Belarus), Perm Tatars, Nagaibak Tatars (of Nogai descent?), Chepets Tatars, Crimean Tatars.

    Take a pick.
  • @Sviatogor

    Turkic Bulgars didn't appear in Balkan as horde, mostly probably just ruling class was Turkic, such as Asparuh.
    Others are descedants mostly of Thracians and "Seven Slavic tribes" which was described there.
  • There were no Thracians on the Balkans in the 6th century.
  • > mostly probably just ruling class was Turkic, such as Asparuh.
    Which would be quite ironic, considering the name is prime example Iranic.
  • edited February 17
    @South Slav

    >Turkic Bulgars didn't appear in Balkan as horde, mostly probably just ruling class was Turkic, such as Asparuh.

    Others are descedants mostly of Thracians and "Seven Slavic tribes" which was described there.

    Oghur speaking Bulgars split into three groups.  One group went to Danube, the other group went to middle Volga.  Some Bulgars stayed in northern Caucases and Caspian steppes . Modern day Balkars living in northern Caucases derive their ethnonym from Bulgars.  Danube Bulgars switched to Slavic language, while Finno-Ugric people of middle Volga – ancestors of Kazan Tatars and Chuvashes – switched to Oghur. Both Kazan Tatars and Chuvashes genetically relate to neighbouring Volgaic Finnic speaking Mari. Chuvashes also culturally relate to Mari in some ways.

    During Golden Horde rule ancestors of Kazan Tatars and Balkars switched to Kypchak that was lingua franca in Horde at the time. The language that was spoken by nomadic Turkic living in western Kazakhstan. To this day Chuvashes speak Oghur – the language Bulgars spoke. There are numerous flame discussions between Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars fighting over Volga Bulgar heritage, which is funny to read. Today, Kazan Tatars speak Kypchak which can be understood by Kazakhs to some extent. Also many Kazan Tatars are russified unable to speak their native language, especially those living in cities and outside of Tatarstan.

  • I'm drinking alcohol again, so I'ma be too smart again. This kind of threads don't do any good. We Slavs should stick together instead of hating and making fun about one another. Bulgarian bulgarians are Slavic today and that's important. We should do better and at least try to be one big family, but people like you prevent it. :/
  • edited February 17
    :D Slovax wuz magyars n sheeeiiit. Also into my cups.
  • Czechs are germans, croats are avars, serbs are turks, bulgarians are tatars slovaks are magyars, russians are vikings. Feel free to add ti this lista
  • @Sviatogor
    Nobody can say for certain what the language of the Bulgars was (let alone Oghur, Oghuz etc), considering there's next to nothing left from it, aside from a few military and calendar terms, which themselves are heavily contested between the Turkic and Iranic theories. Then again, modern Bulgaria has generals, tanks, grenades etc. and all of those words are of Western origin. I guess we're Anglo-Germans now...
  • edited February 18

    Why do Chuvashes living next to Mari in middle Volga speak Oghur? aWe know for a fact from numerous sources about the existence of Volga Bulgaria in this region - confluence of Volga and Kama river near present day Mari El and Tatarstan Republic between 7th-13th centuries before Mongol invasion. Map of Chuvash republic. Yoshkar Ola is capital of Finno-Ugric speaking Mari, who genetically and culturally related to Chuvashes except the language.,+Russia/@55.1258549,46.8142163,7.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x415b0d14030665ff:0x102a3a583f19560!8m2!3d55.5595992!4d46.9283535

    There was no Turkic living  in the regtion prior to the arrival of Bulgars.
  • Probably because the Chuvashes are the descendants of the Sabirs (Suvars in the Late Middle Ages)? And the Sabirs are considered to be a Hunnic tribe, which was first part of Old Great Bulgaria (Eastern Ukraine/Southern Russia) and then moved north to the Volga-Kama area with Kotrag's Bulgars (and in the first few centuries of Volga Bulgaria, the Sabirs, Barsils, Esegels etc lived separately in their own autonomous states, until they were eventually swallowed by the expanding Volga Bulgaria, making it even a more colourful mix than the Balkan one). And the Turkic presence in the region appears primarily around the 13th c., due to the Kypchaks (Polovtsi, in Russian) and the pressure from the Mongols.

    Btw, funny, one of the books I'm currently reading is exactly a history of Volga Bulgaria.
    edited February 18
    This thread has touched an interesting topic... 

    Has there been any study on any related words between Modern Bulgarian and Oghur?  Or Bulgarian and other East Iranic or Turkic languages?

    I've always thought for example, quite a common word in both Macedonian and Bulgarian, such as "sakash" and "iskash" as not necessarily slavic, and they sound foreign, maybe even from the East like Turkic or Iranic, or are they from some older local dialect from a Thraco-Ilyrian language?  Its not remotely similar to Albanian, which claim to be descendants of the Ilyrians.

    I'll give you an example in context:

    English: "What do you want?"

    Macedonian: "Sto sakash?"
    Bulgarian: "Sto iskash?"

    Serb-Croat: "Sta hochesh?
    Russian: "Sto ti khotite?"
    Ukrainian: "Sto ti khochesh?"
  • Correction: Bulgarian is "kakvo iskash?". "Shto" is only in the western dialects and it could even become "shto shtesh?" (що щеш?) in some of them. Otherwise, in literary Bulgarian, shto is a shortening of zashto, i.e. "why". Respectively, (za)shtoto is "because".

    Otherwise, according to the old Turkic-theory dogmatists themselves, there are only 15 supposedly Turkic Bulgar words in the Bulgarian language, namely biser (pearl), beleg (scar), kniga (book; though according to them, that ultimately derives from Chinese), bъbrek (kidney), kumir (idol), korem (belly), siromah (poor man, begger), toyaga (staff, walking stick), chertog (palace) etc. Ironically, the Hungarians claim they have about 200 Turkic words which they surely must have borrowed from the Bulgars and no one else (/sarcasm). As for modern Bulgarian, we have lots of Turkic words, but the vast majority of them are from the Ottoman times (though I wouldn't be surprised if some are also from the Cumans and Pechenegs in the Middle Ages, plus it would be strange if the Bulgars hadn't borrowed any words and terms from the times they were under Hun, Avar and Gokturk dominion before OGB).
  • edited February 18

    Maybe but more likely not.

    Some facts.

    Immediately to the north of Chuvashes live culturally related Finno-Ugric Mari
    To south-west lives Finno-Ugric Mordva - Erzya and Moksha
    To the west lived historic Finno-Ugric Muroma
    To the north-west historic Finno-Ugric Merja

    Between 7th-13th centuries existed Volga Bulgaria on the territories of present day Chuvashia and Tatarstan, after being pushed by Khazars. If Volga Bulgars were Iranic speakers they would have left a significant Iranic impact on languages and cultures of Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars. There's little if any Iranic influence on Chuvashes' and Tatars' languages and cultures.

    Chuvashes speak Oghur language.

    Just after Volga Bulgaria adopted Islam Arab traveler Ahmad Ibn Fadlan visited Volga Bulgaria meeting the ruler of Volga Bulgars in 921-922. In his notes Ibn Fadlan wrote a number of words used by people in Volga Bulgaria in Arab alphabet. Perhaps some words by the ruler himself? The words are Turkic in origin with many equivalent found in modern Chuvash language.

    If the languages of Khazars and Huns maybe a subject of debate, then the language of Volga Bulgars is a foregone conclusion. It was Turkic.  Most will not question the origin of the language of Volga Bulgars in Russia, Tatarstan, Chuvashia. Maybe _certain_ scholars in Bulgaria have doubts?

  • The same Ibn Fadlan also clearly differentiated between the Turkic peoples he met on his way and the Volga Bulgars themselves. As I said, a few word excerpts don't make a language. Especially in an ethnically diverse area as that of medieval Volga Bulgaria (and you conveniently forgot to mention a whole bunch of other tribes in that area).

    As for the "If they were Iranic, they would have left a legacy" argument - well, if they were Turkic, where's their legacy in Danubian Bulgaria? Those 15 words? Or maybe the Kutrigur Bulgars were Turkic and the others were Iranic (actually, that's not out of the question - the Kutrigurs had spent more time with the Huns and then the Avars, after all)?
  • @NikeBG ;
    shto shtesh?
    It's similar to Slovak version - "Čo chceš?"
  • edited February 18

    Ibn Fadlan didn't speak Turkic, so he used a limited number of words in his notes.  Several words don't make the language. However, one can use these words to determine to which language family they belong. Turkic loan-words in Fadland's notes are similar to the words found in Chuvash language belonging to the Oghur branch of Turkic languages

    I provided a decent account of historic and present day facts.

    Ancestors Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars lived at the confluence of Kama and Volga rivers in forest zone surrounded by several Finno-Ugric speaking peoples: Merja, Mari, Muroma, Erzya, Moksha. Modern day Oghur speaking Chuvashes are culturally and genetically similar to Finno-Ugric Mari.  Kazan Tatars are genetically similar to Mari and Chuvashes.  Ancestors of Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars were Finno-Ugric speaking people until the arrival of Volga Bulgars. Ancestors of Kazan Tatars adopted Islam in 921. After Mongol invasion during Horde rule ancestors of Kazan Tatars switched to Kypchak language that was lingua franca in Horde at the time.  It's not new about people adopting Turkic languages as it happened in what's today Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, northern Iran , Azerbaijan, Anatolia, northern Caucasus, Crimea and other places.

    Turkic Sabir tribe could settle in forests of middle Volga but this is only a speculation. One can speculate picking any Turkic tribe roaming through the great steppes from Altai to Carpathians saying any of them could migrate north settling in middle Volga from whom Chuvashes' ancestors picked up the language. Why would nomadic Sabir tribe settle in forests on middle Volga? Bulgars settled the region, after they were pushed by Khazars. Volga Bulgars continued paying tributes to Khazars until Sviatoslav of Rus defeated Khazar Khaganate.

    Chuvashes, whose ancestors were subject of Volga Bulgaria, speak Oghur language to this day. 

  • Some sources state ancestors of Chuvashes were identifying themselves Bulgars and Chuvashes till 14th century. After the decline of Volga Bulgaria the term Chuvash prevailed.

    В 12 в. сформировалась единая болгар. (древнечуваш.) народность, её этнонимами являлись болгар и чуваш (после опустошения Болгарской земли во 2-й пол. 14 – нач. 15 вв. всех болгар стали называть чувашами).

    Лит.: История Чувашской АССР. Т. 1. Ч., 1982. Фахрутдинов Р.Г. Очерки истории Волжской Бoлгарии. М., 1984.

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