#408891

Anonymous
Quote:
Not quite sure what you're trying to say, the words are a little messy. But by the looks of it I'd say it's sarcasm?

Moj dobri, Fini i pošteni pobratime Xilav. Vjeruj mi da mi ni dlaka na glavi nije pomislila ništo grdno, osim iskaza poštovanja.

Quote:
What makes you think every catholic south Slav automatically means he's Croatian? The reason why there were Catholics in the area is because of significant influence of Venice. Same reason why there were many Catholics in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion of the peninsula.
Religion doesn't determine your ethnicity. Well not until the last hundred years since the large groups of South Slavs spoke the same language. There was a necessary distinction among them to be able to tell one ethnicity from another and this is when religion comes in to place. This of course caused many implications, such as people of 'wrong' religions now being considered different ethnicity corresponding to their religious views.
You also forgot to mention that the Vasojevici tribe wanted freedom, meaning they didn't wish to be part of neither Serbia nor Montenegro. So does that make them a whole new nationality or?
You also forgot to mention that he was a self-proclaimed leader of this new 'country' and was considering converting the Vasojevic tribe to Catholicism. This means that only he could be considered catholic and not the other members of the tribe. Also, Holmija never existed officially, it was only planned but never was supported by anyone, despite Nikola's attempts to win over English and French and the Vatican (which would explain why he wanted to convert) to support him. He was assassinated by the order of Njegos later on.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy were divided in 1050. Early 19th century, when it comes to creating a nation Belgrade and Zagreb have not known how to divide its territory and nation, as in the Balkans is about the same mix of people. Agreeing national elite was that all Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs all. This after all is written in the national programs.
Of course, that faith is not a national characteristics for the course that is completely wrong when faith is the only feature.
I understood that each tribe was pulling on his side. Fragmentation of the tribe has always threatened the survival of Montenegro. Because the tribes and united around election False Emperor Šćepan Mali, who was formerly ideals than actual ruler. Even the tribal chiefs agreed to elect the first foreigner to appear and to declare him king. Guards kept Šćepan Mali not from other people but not to escape.
Holmiju mention of such an interesting illustration. Clearly that did not have any support from the European powers. This is the time of Peter II and Poland is keen to expand influence in the Balkans over Holmium. It is true specialists Peter II brought his head in Cetinje.

Quote:
Yes, they were Serbs. And we still are Serbs. You could find all the surnames that derive from that tribe on the internet, I'd bet you my left nut you will find at least a dozen of them currently having members in the Serbian government alone. You refuse to accept Serbs ever even living in the modern Montenegrin territory, what's the point in discussing then? And where did you find this protest note? May I see it? You have an awful lot of knowledge about certain documents that never seemed to see the light of day.

It must be that I expressed badly.
Vasojevici were then Montenegrins, and chased the Turks and Serbs from the Lima valley. Of course there is evidence look in the archives in Belgrade Obrenovic correspondence with Nicholas I.

Quote:
True. However, in ADI, it is clearly stated that all the regions around Duklja are settled by Serbian tribes, whereas Duklja is said to be settled by simply Slavs. Professor John Fines argues that the people living in Duklja are also Serbs, considering they were circled by Serbian settlements. Nevertheless, Duklja becomes one of Serbian principalities in the 9th century. Reportedly, coastal zhupanias were under authority of the Serbian prince Caslav Klonimirovic in mid 10th century. Regardless whether they were settled by Serbs or other Slavs, during the course of few centuries, especially after being under the same ruler, the two intermixed and with both sides being Slavs it doesn't really matter. Ethnicity didn't truly exist then. It was dictated by your ruler's origin in most cases. Same way Bulgarians became Slavs yet kept the turkic name.

Yes it's true what you say. But now we have a disagreement.
The first country that era were not an ethnic or national of the country, but the estates fudalnih master. Feudal lord usually did not have the same ethnic origin as the population ruled.
In feudalism, there are social strata, and it is important to co belongs to a group of noblemen and not by ethnicity.
Are the Russians and the English have become Germans when their emperor and king of the clean Germans?

Quote:
Not sure why you're bringing this up to the topic, it has nothing to do with anything I've said, what so ever. And I don't even understand much of it. What are you trying to say? There were Slavs before arrival of Serbian and Croatian tribes?

I want to say that Croats and Serbs were not the tribe.
They were supporting units (ohlosi) Obra.
Dissolution of the Avar state, Serbs and Croats remained in Pannonia and offered their military services to anyone who was willing to suffer.
They have made alliances with tribal Slavs who are already in the Balkans for centuries and which are called their tribal name.

Quote:
Oh, are you now saying there was  no clear distinction between the two before 20th century? What about Medieval Serbian states? Modern Montenegro was a part of it, was it not? Are you saying they didn't fight together with the rest of the country? I mean I do know the stereotype of Montenegrins of being lazy but come on ;D Reason why Montenegro came to be was due to it being completely cut off from the rest of the country ever since the Ottomans conquered Serbia. And this is the only reason why it grew separately and grew somewhat apart from Serbia. However, once the Turks were out, Montenegro and Serbia united again (although it wasn't the country of Serbia but Kingdom of SHS), which was the natural course of action at the time.

@Brdjanin, drugi ogranak Rajevica, od Dabeticevih Ivanovica-Sjenozecana, Bakici ;D ;D pretty far down, it seems. Considering there are hundreds of surnames still in use that derive from the Vasojevic tribe, I'd say good portion of modern Serbs is pretty much related through the tribe :)

We really during the Communist taught that the Emperor Dusan the first  samoupravljač and devised a tactic of general national defense.
Really believe that during the Middle Ages there was a military obligation and that the peasants arming themselves in partisan units?
Not then have the force Serbian rulers were German mercenaries.
What to do with beating and robbery of medieval estate with a population that lived in those areas? Nothing.
Montenegro and Serbia are not united. Montenegro was annexed by the Kingdom of Serbia. And it is not the natural flow of things then, but very dishonorable act allies.