#410752

Anonymous
  • You are wellcome. Sorry if I sounded like criticizing, I love to go in details.

    Yes you are right. But, I think its mostly localism, charachteristc before everything else for Belgrade speech. I rarely hear it in Novi Sad, and almost never in Bosnia.

    Quote:
    1) As for Kajkavski, I can guess it sounds like Slovenian as there are some similarities though in my case I don’t understand much Slovene because of Kajkavski, when I was with group of Slovenes from Maribor they tried to speak Croatian or we used English ‘tu i tamo’ D

    Somebody wrote that from Constantinople to Wienna you could go, never crossing language barier. I mean in every successsive region there are slight differences in speech. Of course in end there are big differences between Slovenian and Bulgarian. But there is lot of slight tranitions in between

    Slovenian members could say more, but I think there is soem 49 Slovenian dialects. I guess Styrian dialects could be closer to Kajkavian, than other. From my experience, they are good with Serbian (and Croatian, I mean standard one).

    I red few theories about South Slavic languages. I think basic difference is Western Group (Štokavian, Čakavian, Kajkavian and Slovene dialects) and Eastern (Bulgarian, Old Church Slavonic and Macedonian). There is some misunderstanding about Western, but most hold that Čakavian and Štokaviana are one branch while Kajkavian and Slovenian other. Ofc it has no implications on ethnicity, Kajkavians were from begining part of Croatian state and built their ethnic identity in that critera. 

    Some examples:

    Ok, I see examples. But you are comparing neoŠtokavian (ie subdialect which is basis of standard Serbian and standard Croatian) with Kajkavian. There are various subdialectical details.

    Anyway, this is one of most famous Čakavian songs:

    http://www.rastko.rs/rastko/delo/10060
    I really dont think its more similar to Kajkavian than Štokavian.

    Well, younger  štokavian accentuation is charachteristic just for neo-Štokavian. So, its not really point, unless you think that Štokavian subdialects with old accentuation are somehow closer to Kajkavian and Čakavian than to Neo-Štokavian. There are Čakavian dialects with analagous accentuation to Neo-Štokavian, and there is no common accentuation system for Čakavian and Kajkavian.

    I am not sure about details. But I think Čakavians have other phonema instead. (t’) while Kajkavians use tj, or do not differentiate between č and ć.

    True for Kajkavian, not true for Čakavian. Most of Čakavian dialects have l vocalisation. I think those from Istria do not have it.

    And you have šćakavian subdialect of Štokavian. Altought there is no general rule for Čakavian. They seem to use both št (štogodi, ništar) and šć (tašćina, pušćati)

    Čakavian did preserved vocative.

    And Štokavian preserved many Old Slavic words, where it is lost in other two. Also, they preserved old Slavic tenses like Aorist, imperfect and future II.

    I think Croatian Štokavians say same. Anyway, I think at least Hektorović’s dialect, Hvarian, did use locativ for direction:

    Kada dojdeš, kreže Marko, k našoj majci junačkoj,

    Lets see.
    Dom exist in Štokavian. It is usual to say, in Serbian,: Naselje x ima 356 domova. Also, you have many words derived from it: domaćin, domaćinstvo, domaćica domaći etc…
    Anyway, hiža is not Čakavian word AFAIK.

    It exist, but rather archaic. But dont Čakavians use zli, bit more offten?

    Hitati. Altough its archaic.

    I know thats true for Kajkavian, but from what I had chance to read of Čakavian literature, they use s or sa.
    (Petar Hektorović for example)

    Archaic it is, but still exist in Štokavian.

    Emh, Bosnian Muslims use that. I red it was charachteristic in parts of Serbia, altough Serbs usualy have aversion for h. And it is not definitve Čakavian trait. They also use lasno which is common with Štokavian.

    This is definitly something you could find in most of non-literature Štokavian speeches.

    meša (kaj), miša (ča) = misa
    plavat = plivati
    povedat = pričati

    Well tić is surely Štokavian. Altough, it means young of bird.

    Weeeeell, since most of Čakavian dialects are ikavian, I doubt they use “delat”. Anyway, word djelati/delati exists in Štokavian as well.

    Hm, I am affraid you got confused here. Mati and mater are same word. Literary. Mati is nominative, and mater accusative.
    PS if you watched Serbian films, you ought to hear accusative when somebody is swearing.

    Well, depends, when they sound awkard they surely should be pushed out. I think ura is Germanism.

    Quote:
    laz, las = gorska livada

    This definitley exist. There are many “lazi” in Hercegovina and Montenegro.

    vužgat, važgat = zapaliti
    čret = swamp terrain (there’s county called Sveti Ivan Začretje –> čret, tj didn’t change to ć)
    v,va, vu = u, prema

    Quote:


    And characteristics of Štokavski:
    1) l changes to o (selce – seoca, dati – dao)
    2) čr changes to cr (crven, crijep..)
    3) old preposition v changed to u
    4) sound h is lost (except for Dubrovnik and Muslims)
    5) in plural dative, locative and instrumental are the same
    6) genitive of plural got ending -a whereas Kaj and Ča use old declension without -a (genitive plural would be -Ø .. bežim od krav, pred mnogo let..)

I think I touched most of this.

I dont know for situation in Croatia. In Serbia, well, turbo-folk did originate in places like Belgrade and Novi Sad. People wer emixing everything. (Trraditional Serbian Music, Greek music, Rock and Roll, R’n’B, of course Oriental music etc). Its rather ecletic, but its something for muscologists I guess.

I am not sure it is proper subculture. But it originated in Serbia, no rocket science about it. And I think it does exist in Croatia.Of course it came from Serbia and Bosnia, but still does not change fact it does exist. (Not contradicting you, just trying to be precise)

Quote:
As Povhec replied – it’s popular by immigrants etc.

Ok, but I saw young Slovenes, ethnic ones who came in Belgrade. Not few of them but many. I dont know why they love it so much. There are ok songs, some verry good, but there is plenty of crap. But I was just stating something I saw with my own eyes.

Example,folklore here is not similar to one from Macedonia or maybe Serbia south of Belgrade/Vojvodina.

Duh Slavonski bećarac is rather similar to Serbian music as general.

Well Dalmatia is similar case. There is mediterannean Music, there is music rather similar to music of Bosnia and Western Serbia etc. 

Well, nobody did try to put Croatia to same pot with Serbia. But, you are again generalising. There are of course overlap between Serbian and Macedonian Music and dances, but there are many songs and dances who look verry different to Macedonian and Bulgarian. Gusle, ojkača, Šumadijska dvojka… its rather different from Bulgarian and Macedonian folclores. It was my point. 

BTW thanks for sharing opinions.

Common Povhec, you misunderstood me. I said I saw many, and really many Slovenes (ethnic ones), of not mixed ancestry, who were coming to hear it in Belgrade. I odnt know about percentages.