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  • #343733

    Anonymous

    This is mainly to debunk some crap I read on the net about the apparent “mongoloid” ancestry of Russians.

    The studies I am about to post are tests of autosomal DNA polymorphism, which is the most reliable test in establishing someone’s genetic make-up.

    Specifically, it’s about ALU elements (the most numerous repetitive elements in human genome).
    I also assume the tests were executed by electrophoresis.

    Ten populations in Russia were taken for blood sample, to comprise three distinct groups (Caucasians, Finno-Ugrians and “Slavic Russians”), so there are some quite contrasting groups genetically speaking (like Pomors and Caucasians).

    The results are the following –

    We clearly see the 3 distinct groups. Note the cossacks are intermediate between Slavic Russians and Caucasus populations So much about “Slavic” cossacks some people on this forum keep talking about.

    Areas like Smolensk, Pskov, Belarus, Ukraine (yes both are included and I know they are not Russians), Pinega and Krasnoborsk are the most “Slavic” therfore the most Europid.

    As a bonus treat, I will also post autosomal studies of Russians in relation to other Europeans.

    There is high admixture of “Uralic” in Russians, however this is mostly due to the fact that non-ethnic Russians were also tested. As a funny sidenote, Russia has almost next to nothing Ashkenazi admixture, while Italy has quite a LOT D

    Now, you can imagine my suprise when I read stuff like these:

    http://english.pravda.ru/health/31-01-2004/4722-alcoholism-0/

    Russians have 50% Mongol “genes” according to them  :-

    Who are these Pravda guys anyway? Do they usually write crap like that?

    Anyway this is getting tiresome… Will post more genetic studies of Russains + some face reconstruction from old Russians (Vyatichi, Krivichi etc…)

    #391044

    Anonymous

    This map is crap. Apart from the fact that Cossacks look very much like Ukranians- therefore they are slightly darker than Russians proper but they aren't closer to chechens and others than to Russians proper. Also why would Russians from the northern areas like Voldoga be closer to kavkazians than to Russians from Smolensk. Its impossible, not to mention it portrays kavkazians in general as being far to close to East Slavs.

    #391045

    Anonymous

    Traces of Lev Gumilev's quazi-science in newspapers. Sadly, his parents were importnant persons in Russian culture. But guess his mothers phantasies of Ghengishid pedigre of her grandmother had negative impact on boy's growning ;D

    #391046

    Anonymous

    Sigh, it doesn't show Caucasians are close to east Slavs at all, learn to read the damn map  ::)

    It shows relation of Russians, Caucasians, and Finno-Uralics, not distance between them when comparing Russians to Europeans.

    That's why I posted the SECOND map.

    As for Northern Russians, I have no idea. Most likely they are related to Caucasians because some people from Caucasus have some Slavic blood, not because of the reverse  ::)

    And I'm not going to comment about cossacks…

    #391047

    Anonymous

    The most likely explanation is that "scientists" from pravda.ru article have semitic genes :D

    #391048

    Anonymous

    That’s why I posted the SECOND map.

    As for Northern Russians, I have no idea. Most likely they are related to Caucasians because some people from Caucasus have some Slavic blood, not because of the reverse  ::)

    Try following your own advice. The clusters border one another, while the finno ugric one does not. And certain kavkazians like chechens for example are closer to certain Russians than these Russians are to other Russian. Some kavkazians do indeed have northern european input such as chechens and other north kavkazians this can be seen by the fact that they are closest to the slavic cluster. But northern Russians have  a clear kavkazian pull seeing as after the don cossaks theyre the closest Russians to them. Then the terek cossaks have a clear finno-ugric pull yet they should have the strongest kavkazian pull of all the Russian groups. It makes zero sense.
    And I’m not going to comment about cossacks…

    Don Cossaks are Ukranians essentially like most other southern Russians. What about them makes you think otherwise??

    #391051

    Anonymous

    Don Cossaks have nothing to do with Ukraine.

    #391052

    Anonymous

    Semi-mongolian Finno-Ugrians have very little do with Russians, while some of the ancestors of the Caucasians were indo-European peoples like the Alans. Still, if the same study included west-Europeans it would show that Russians are closer to them while being lightyears distant from Caucasians.

    You’re the one making zero sense with weak non-sequitur arguments. You are also welcome to accept the Pravda genetic study if it pleases you so.

    wtf? You can’t read it literally like that. For example, if I were to make a DNA test on myself and if it showed I’m 3/4 German and 1/4 middle eastern, I would have to look geographically for the middle ground which is Austria/North Italy/Slovenia. It doesn’t mean I’m 1/4 middle eastener, it means my genotype is pulling geographically from Germany toward the middle east.

    This is why all Russians are found inside the dashed elipses, they have more to do with eachother than they have with Caucasians and Finno-Uralics. And for the same damn reason Kuban cossacks are found outside the elipses.

    It would be insane to assume Kashin people have more to do with Chechens than with Smolensk  ::)

    Secondly, the scientists behind this test are undoubtedly politically correct, it is possible they took blood sample from all kind of peoples even in northern Russia. However it’s still a better test then the Pravda crap.

    Nope Don Cossacks are not even remotely Ukrainians.
    Yeah some Cossacks have been part of Ukrainian history and national identity, it’s disrespectful toward Ukrainians to call them half-turkic wogs. However, while they have been Slavic through the centuries, they were still people living on the borders so some sort of miscegenation occured. Today some of them have little to do with true Ukrainians (which btw are as blonde as average Russians). The Don Cossacks today (which are NOT Ukrainians) have f. ex dubious racial stock.

    However this is no place to discuss Cossacks, there is a thread about them –

    http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,1444.msg38161.html#msg38161

    You can discuss it with people who know them far better than you do.

    #391053

    Anonymous

    Here is detailed refutation of pravda.ru article with analysis of Russian and English speaking sources and scientific articles.

    The authors of that article are journalists-idiots, the whole article has a delusional character. There were explored 123 residents of Moscow:

    The Moscow Russian sample appears anomalous with a fairly high frequency of ADH1B*47His; however, the sample is said in the original publication to be admixed with eastern Asians.

    As indicated by Li et al., ‘‘the Moscow Russian sample appears anomalous with a fairly high frequency (41%) of ADH1B*47His’’ resulting in a local maximum in the central part of the Russian Plain on the allele-frequency map. In addition, in another study, the frequency of the allele for Russians in Siberia was also found to be relatively high (~20%), which is significantly different from other European populations. To estimate the frequency among Russians more extensively, we have carried out further genotyping in Muscovites and in other Russian populations from different geographic regions. The frequency of the ADH1B*47His allele in Russians across the country (including both European and Asian parts of Russia) varies between 1.9% and 7.6%, with a mean frequency of 4.9% in the total group of 1019 Russian individuals. These data agree with other data on ADH1B*47His allele frequency for Northern Russian populations of Archangelsk (5%) and Vologda (6%), and are similar to the frequencies that we estimated for the closest relative Slavic groups (Ukrainians and Byelorussians). The higher frequencies of the allele reported previously for Russians are, therefore, most likely the result of genotyping error.

    http://www.medgenetics.ru/UserFile/File/Doc/Evolution%20Doc/Borinskaya%202009%20AJHG%20Distr%20ADH1B%2047His.pdf

    Another important thing that:

    There is a negative correlation between the ADH2-2 allele and alcohol misuse (both alcoholic dependence and alcoholic cirrhosis).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11900616

    By another words this gene causes the rejection of alcohol.

    Similar ignorant articles are pretty common among Rossiyaniya’s journalists, sometimes they try to prove that Negroes are native residents of Russian plain by distortion of scientific facts or the using of unreliable sources

    #391054

    Anonymous

    Not exactly. There is a minimum relationship that people must have with others to be in a cluster. However at the border of clusters it would make sense that people sitting right next to the border have more to do with their immediate neighbors in the bordering cluster than those furthest from them in their own cluster. Which is why I say this map is full of shit when it can show the kavkazian cluster as bordering the East Slavic one.

    Secondly, the scientists behind this test are undoubtedly politically correct, it is possible they took blood sample from all kind of peoples even in northern Russia. However it’s still a better test then the Pravda crap.

    Just because it is slightly better does not make it reliable in the least bit.

    Nope Don Cossacks are not even remotely Ukrainians.
    Yeah some Cossacks have been part of Ukrainian history and national identity, it’s disrespectful toward Ukrainians to call them half-turkic wogs. However, while they have been Slavic through the centuries, they were still people living on the borders so some sort of miscegenation occured. Today some of them have little to do with true Ukrainians (which btw are as blonde as average Russians). The Don Cossacks today (which are NOT Ukrainians) have f. ex dubious racial stock.

    Then why do Ukrainians consider Don Cossaks to be Ukrainians  ::)

    However this is no place to discuss Cossacks, there is a thread about them –

    http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,1444.msg38161.html#msg38161

    You can discuss it with people who know them far better than you do.

    I am not seeing anything in that thread that shows Don Cossaks are “racially dubious” as you put it.

    #391065

    Anonymous

    Ukrainians do not consider Don Cossaks as Ukrainians and Don Cossaks generally hated Ukrianians (most euphemistical way to say this). Don Cossaks are descendants of Novgorodian and Suzdalian merchants and runaway serfs who mixed with Stepe tribes. In XV century, after colapse of Golden Horde they formed semi-autonomous state Don Host, which mainly wass vasal of Grand Princedom of Moscow and latter of Russia. They fought against Tartars but borrowed lot from Tartar culture. They fought mainly on Russian side, but there were periods when they supported others (in Smutnooy vremya part of them was on Polish side, other part was helping Russian patriots and were led by Prince Trubeckoy). Peter the Great subjugated Don Cossaks to central Power with help of ataman Frol Minayev.
    Don and Zaporohian (Ukrianian Cossaks), mainly clashed being on oposide sides in Russian-Lithuanian wars, but sometimes cooperated (like in Khmelnitsky Uprising), and both movements saw themselves as protectors of Orthodoxy (their favourite ecuse for all kinds of rebellions).

    #391066

    Anonymous

    @Machete, use the "quote" tag, and really, argue about your favourite cossacks in proper thread.

    #391067

    Anonymous

    Something I must tell you all is that I saw that Ossetian people have a high amount of R1b similar to the one in Western Europe.

    #391068

    Anonymous

    Ossetians are Indo-European people it is not surprise.

    #391069

    Anonymous

    Yes but you not usually associate Caucasians with British, French and Spanish.

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