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  • #344844

    Anonymous

    https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:GRC:BIH:BGR:HRV:MKD:MNE:SRB:SVN&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false&q=greece+gdp+graph

    Greece was the least industrialized, most traditional country of the balkans, yet its numbers look huge in comparison to all the rest of the balkans combined.

    I know very well that e.g. Greece has half the agricultural production of Croatia/Slovenia, half the meat production of Serbia, comparable tourist industry with Croatia/CrnaGora/Bulgaria combined and less industrial production than any of the ex-yu countries ….

    Why those huge figures ????

    Ok, i know i know, i am just a naive person who believes in conspiracies !! LOL

    I wait in agony Barov's non-conspiracy answer on that. LOL. Most probably he will claim that Greeks are just …. a superior nation, close to the Rhinenlands … LMAO…. and LMAO really hard

    #406241

    Anonymous

    Firstly, Greece wasn't in the communist bloc, thus had more free market. Secondly, agriculture (and to a lesser degree, industry) isn't responsible for the country's wealth, main source of income in developed countries are the services. AFAIK Greece main source of income is the tourism and shipping. And Greece is in the EU, which helps, at least in the first part of the membership.

    #406242

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Firstly, Greece wasn't in the communist bloc, thus had more free market. Secondly, agriculture (and to a lesser degree, industry) isn't responsible for the country's wealth, main source of income in developed countries are the services. AFAIK Greece main source of income is the tourism and shipping. And Greece is in the EU, which helps, at least in the first part of the membership.

    If there were actual data for the rest of the countries (Bulgaria is shown since 1980), (we could also just follow the trends) we could see that before-1980 most of ex-yu communist republics would outperform Greece easily, and Bulgaria certainly before-1970. So the communist argument is completely useless, to the point it could be used as a counter-argument.
    Shipping *IS NOT* a source of income for Greece. This is a myth. Most shipping companies are off shores who do business almost exclusively outside Greece. Greece does not earn nothing off the shipping companies. And of course those are not taxed. I work in this sector, i know better.

    Sure EU played a role by giving away 200Billions and 600Billions in loans, i mean even Tibuktu in africa would manage to have a similar "virtual" growth, (because in reality, economy was not production-intensive but rather consumption-intensive).

    West created a virtual reality in Greece, and we are heavily trapped in it. We are screwed from many aspects now.

    #406243

    Anonymous

    Greek as of entering EU bulked their wages to ridicilous average pay in public sector of 1300-1500 Euro per month. In Croatia average paycheck is around 700-800 Euro and they're working on cutting it down as we speak now so we don't fall even deeper in shit, in other words we're avoiding MMF. Greeks lived a lifestyle of an Swiss citizen but with no production to back it up. I'm saying we all have the right to live, but i think some of those wages are tad high. I mean Croats have among the highest tax in Europe, most expensive monthly food per household prices, and our wages are double and more less than Greek ones…obviouslly Greeks have been sucking the EU tit without hesitation, and now when it backfired you're going down.

    It's a sad sight, i still believe it isn't your fault completley as the whole crisis was started by the fall of american banking system.

    #406244

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Greek as of entering EU bulked their wages to ridicilous average pay in public sector of 1300-1500 Euro per month. In Croatia average paycheck is around 700-800 Euro and they're working on cutting it down as we speak now so we don't fall even deeper in ****, in other words we're avoiding MMF. Greeks lived a lifestyle of an Swiss citizen but with no production to back it up. I'm saying we all have the right to live, but i think some of those wages are tad high. I mean Croats have among the highest tax in Europe, most expensive monthly food per household prices, and our wages are double and more less than Greek ones…obviouslly Greeks have been sucking the EU tit without hesitation, and now when it backfired you're going down.

    It's a sad sight, i still believe it isn't your fault completley as the whole crisis was started by the fall of american banking system.

    they (west) stuffed us with pseudo-nationalism, gave fake numbers for economy, even for demographics : the 8,000,000 greeks of 1980 suddenly became … proud 11,000,000 ancient greeks ready to conquer the world, when average Greek woman gives birth to less than 2 children, and this rate was since 1980, its not something new. How did we become 11,000,000 i still scratch my head to find an answer. All in all, I think that we played exactly how the west wanted us to play.

    #406245

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    If there were actual data for the rest of the countries (Bulgaria is shown since 1980), (we could also just follow the trends) we could see that before-1980 most of ex-yu communist republics would outperform Greece easily, and Bulgaria certainly before-1970. So the communist argument is completely useless, to the point it could be used as a counter-argument.

    Nope, communism may be effective in short-term, but in long-term it's always backfiring. Compare North and South Korea.

    Shipping *IS NOT* a source of income for Greece. This is a myth. Most shipping companies are off shores who do business almost exclusively outside Greece. Greece does not earn nothing off the shipping companies. And of course those are not taxed. I work in this sector, i know better.

    But GDP isn't the income of Greece but income of Greeks. The shipping companies are employing Greeks, aren't they?

    Sure EU played a role by giving away 200Billions and 600Billions in loans, i mean even Tibuktu in africa would manage to have a similar "virtual" growth, (because in reality, economy was not production-intensive but rather consumption-intensive).

    Loans may be quite effective in spinning up the economy, but your government spend them rather in welfare state, rather than invest it properly.

    #406246

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Nope, communism may be effective in short-term, but in long-term it's always backfiring. Compare North and South Korea.

    Hmm a little-bit emotional-motivated kind of view, i mean involving north korea for no reason. Someone could counter-argue with the example of China the no1 economy (soon) in the world. Fact is all of ex-yu republics did much better than Greece for a sustained period of 40 years. And during those years, ex-yu was socialist, greece fully capitalist. Maybe you have to reconsider your methods of thought. While Greece collapsed in just 20 years after being injected with mythical amount of money. Not to mention that the number of businesses opened in Greece during those years (1950-1990, 1990-2010) must be a tiny fraction of the respective ex-yu/bulgarians ones (1944-1990).

    Quote:
    But GDP isn't the income of Greece but income of Greeks. The shipping companies are employing Greeks, aren't they?

    Yes all <=1000 of them. And most being paid with "black" money, since that was tolerated by the law which the Americans passed during the marshall-plan post-wwwII period. I doubt the salaries of those 1000 ppl would make the slightest impact on the 20 or so fractional digit of GDP.

    #406247

    Anonymous

    logic was killed now… am too tired to explain it now, maybe someone else? konzerva or povhec? please tell him whats gdp, gdp/capita and what does that say, how its counted..  ;D

    #406248

    Anonymous

    Naturally Slovenia can never have better GDP than Greece due to size of our country and population. But we can have better GDP per capita. :D In 2011 Greece had 30th highest nominal GDP per capita while Slovenia was 31th. However in PPP GDP we faired better than Greece with being 33th and Greece 35th. PPP GDP is purchasing power parity GDP. Other than that Slovene agricultural production is extreamly small and was in decline ever since collapse of Austro-Hungarian empire when 40% of Slovene land were forests now over 60% are forests.

    #406249

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    If there were actual data for the rest of the countries (Bulgaria is shown since 1980), (we could also just follow the trends) we could see that before-1980 most of ex-yu communist republics would outperform Greece easily, and Bulgaria certainly before-1970. So the communist argument is completely useless, to the point it could be used as a counter-argument.
    Shipping *IS NOT* a source of income for Greece. This is a myth. Most shipping companies are off shores who do business almost exclusively outside Greece. Greece does not earn nothing off the shipping companies. And of course those are not taxed. I work in this sector, i know better.

    Sure EU played a role by giving away 200Billions and 600Billions in loans, i mean even Tibuktu in africa would manage to have a similar "virtual" growth, (because in reality, economy was not production-intensive but rather consumption-intensive).

    West created a virtual reality in Greece, and we are heavily trapped in it. We are screwed from many aspects now.

    Per Capita GDP (1990 $[17]) 1950 1973 1989[18] 1990
    United States $9,561 $16,689 n/a $23,214
    Finland $4,253 $11,085 $16,676 $16,868
    Austria $3,706 $11,235 $16,305 $16,881
    Italy $3,502 $10,643 $15,650 $16,320
    Czechoslovakia $3,501 $7,041 $8,729 $8,895 (Czech)
    $7,762 (Slovak)
    Soviet Union $2,834 $6,058 n/a $6,871
    Hungary $2,480 $5,596 $6,787 $6,471
    Poland $2,447 $5,334 n/a $5,115
    Spain $2,397 $8,739 $11,752 $12,210
    Portugal $2,069 $7,343 $10,355 $10,852
    Greece $1,915 $7,655 $10,262 $9,904
    Bulgaria $1,651 $5,284 $6,217 $5,552
    Yugoslavia $1,585 $4,350 $5,917 $5,695
    Romania $1,182 $3,477 $3,890 $3,525
    Albania $1,101 $2,252 n/a $2,482
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Bulgaria#cite_note-madison185-17

    #406250

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Naturally Slovenia can never have better GDP than Greece due to size of our country and population. But we can have better GDP per capita. :D In 2011 Greece had 30th highest nominal GDP per capita while Slovenia was 31th. However in PPP GDP we faired better than Greece with being 33th and Greece 35th. PPP GDP is purchasing power parity GDP per capita. Other than that Slovene agricultural production is extreamly small and was in decline ever since collapse of Austro-Hungarian empire when 40% of Slovene land were forests now over 60% are forests.

    To the fields!  ;D

    #406251

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    To the fields!  ;D

    I agree! This problem should be solved. We must increase farming once again. :)

    #406252

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Per Capita GDP (1990 $[17]) 1950 1973 1989[18] 1990
    United States $9,561 $16,689 n/a $23,214
    Finland $4,253 $11,085 $16,676 $16,868
    Austria $3,706 $11,235 $16,305 $16,881
    Italy $3,502 $10,643 $15,650 $16,320
    Czechoslovakia $3,501 $7,041 $8,729 $8,895 (Czech)
    $7,762 (Slovak)
    Soviet Union $2,834 $6,058 n/a $6,871
    Hungary $2,480 $5,596 $6,787 $6,471
    Poland $2,447 $5,334 n/a $5,115
    Spain $2,397 $8,739 $11,752 $12,210
    Portugal $2,069 $7,343 $10,355 $10,852
    Greece $1,915 $7,655 $10,262 $9,904
    Bulgaria $1,651 $5,284 $6,217 $5,552
    Yugoslavia $1,585 $4,350 $5,917 $5,695
    Romania $1,182 $3,477 $3,890 $3,525
    Albania $1,101 $2,252 n/a $2,482
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Bulgaria#cite_note-madison185-17

    Thanx for the link, although i'd take western numbers with a grain of salt. Anyway i just saw Vitosha Computer system and was impressed:
    image

    I guess the scientific/technical/industrial development of Slavic countries pre-1990 will not happen in a middle eastern protectorate such as Quatar/UAE/Greece not even in our wildest dreams.

    #406253

    Anonymous

    Communist bloc's computers were many years behind the Western ones, mostly because of the embargo on exporting new technology. But it wasn't complete junk after all (even if quite backwards), Polish Odra computer (from the late 1970's, if I remember well), was working until recently at some railway junctions (without much problems, only nowadays there's a risk that if the machine fails, no one would be able to repair it, because of lack of components), the Yugoslav's rocket launchpad which shot the US Nighthawk was also operated by an Odra computer.

    The computer on the photo you provided looks *very* primitive.

    #406254

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Communist bloc's computers were many years behind the Western ones, mostly because of the embargo on exporting new technology.

    Ok, but you gotta start from somewhere. Just waiting passively for the next iphone, or the next ipad, or the next google-controlled android tablet is no fun, right?

    Quote:
    The computer on the photo you provided looks *very* primitive.

    Still much better than anything designed in "western" "capitalist" "american" Greece.

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