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  • #349361

    Anonymous

    a wooden bar is idol? how do you know? how do you know its idol of svetovid?
    do you know when was that church built? it was built when paganism was thing of forgotten past

    and do you know how long a piece of wood can last on air?

    #349362

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Be sarcastic all you want. This kind of wooden construction was clearly influenced by central European pagan buildings. There are also Byzantine elements, but Orthodox Byzant architecture was in turn taken from pagan Greek architecture, so this does you not credit.  :P

    1) Basilica was courthouse not pagan temple.
    2) Building Churches in shape of Cross is pagan practice?
    3) Christians developed it. They used some elements from Greco-Roman basiliacs, but it is essentialy different.
    4) From when Ancient Slavs=Ancient Greeks+Ancient Romans

    Quote:
    Slavic culture is called the wooden culture. When talking about Slavic culture, we must be aware of the fact that the core of Slavic culture was and still is pagan. No matter if you like it or not.  ;)  Christian missionaries took over so many Slavic pagan stuff because they knew, people would hardly give them up. And many pagan temples were rebuilt to churches as the archaelogy and legends say.

    Svetoslava, there is nothing pagan in this style of architecture. And this churches were build 100 or 200 years ago. By Christian Slavs. If you agree, last 1000 years waste majority of Slavs are Christians. Being woden or Slavic does not qualify it not being Christian.

    Quote:
    i just noticed we are now offtopic.
    to get on topic: did they built cathedrals and then blow them up?

    Emperor Alexander I decided to build Cathedral of Christ Saviour "to signify Our gratitude to Divine Providence for saving Russia from the doom that overshadowed Her" and as a memorial to the sacrifices of the Russian people during Napoleonic war. But building stated 1839 Cathedral was consecrated 1863, and Emperor Alexander III was first to be crowned there.
    Stalin demolished it.
    On December 5th 1931, by order of Stalin's minister Kaganovich, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour was dynamited and reduced to rubble. It took more than a year to clear the debris from the site.
    In February 1990, the Russian Orthodox Church received permission from the Soviet Government to rebuild the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour.

    A construction fund was initiated in 1992 and funds began to pour in from ordinary citizens in the autumn of 1994. Rebuilding was finished in 2000.

    #349363

    Anonymous

    dalibor i meant if old pagans built cathedrals and them blew them up, i meant it that way but lots of people posted before me :D
    maybe somebody will say more whether this build-n-blow wasnt stolen from pagans too
    i think pagans should go on police and file an action against christians. this thievery is terrible
    in democratic state of 21st century…

    p. s. democracy is pagan!  :-X

    #349364

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    a wooden bar is idol? how do you know? how do you know its idol of svetovid?
    do you know when was that church built? it was built when paganism was thing of forgotten past

    and do you know how long a piece of wood can last on air?

    Why don't you do a bit of research then if you don't believe me. What would a woden idol, widely spread among pagan Slavs, do in a church as a built in part from it's foundation?

    Quote:
    and do you know how long a piece of wood can last on air?

    Horyu
    image
    This first temple is believed to have been completed by 607

    problem? problem from any Pagan idol from few centuries later to survive?

    Quote:
    dalibor i meant if old pagans built cathedrals and them blew them up, i meant it that way but lots of people posted before me :D
    maybe somebody will say more whether this build-n-blow wasnt stolen from pagans too
    i think pagans should go on police and file an action against christians. this thievery is terrible
    in democratic state of 21st century…

    p. s. democracy is pagan!  :-X

    Zrkadlo, don't be a wise ass and insult anyone here. Maybe you Christians should stop crying about Jesus on a cross too eh?

    Quote:
    1) Basilica was courthouse not pagan temple.
    2) Building Churches in shape of Cross is pagan practice?
    3) Christians developed it. They used some elements from Greco-Roman basiliacs, but it is essentialy different.
    4) From when Ancient Slavs=Ancient Greeks+Ancient Romans

    Look a Slavic Church(Saint Leonard's church in Lipnica Murowana):
    image

    But my, my what is this!! A pagan idol of Svetovid inside a Christian Slavic Church! :O

    image

    but yeah i guess it was originally Christian because of the dome and altar inside, no way did the Christians convert the Pagan Temple into a Christian Church by building a dome on a temple and inserting the cross with an altar inside.

    #349365

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do you guys still think that anything that is learned as Christian today is in reallity really its? That is a religion made on assimilating other things into it's core.

    The Cross of the zodiac  (cross within the circle) was a pagan spiritual symbol which may have been  adopted as the Christian cross by early Christians. The two symbols are remarkably similar.

    In Kherson, southern Ukraine, a sculpture of Dazhdbog stood somewhere in the centre of the city was dismantled after a protest from Ukrainian Orthodox church. There is a museum of Domovoi in a village in Crimea . The museum is very popular with tourists and clergy are becoming vocal about it. So much so that the story is in media spotlight now.
    There is a modest pagan museum in Kemerovo, Siberia out of sight of everyone.

    I don't think it would be possible to build anything big and pagan without upsetting Orthodox Church  who are almighty and powerful in Russia.

    #349366

    Anonymous

    pentaz those japanese surely had to replace wooden pieces because wood rots
    it also depends on type of wood…
    these churches surely couldnt exist before they were built (which is well documented). so they couldnt be pagan temple.
    not to say that we dont know if slavs in carpathian area ever build a pagan temple (building).

    but hey why do you think that wooden bar is idol?

    edit: kudesnik, early christians used fish or XP symbol, not cross and surely not cross with circle :)

    #349367

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1) Basilica was courthouse not pagan temple.
    2) Building Churches in shape of Cross is pagan practice?
    3) Christians developed it. They used some elements from Greco-Roman basiliacs, but it is essentialy different.
    4) From when Ancient Slavs=Ancient Greeks+Ancient Romans

    Were have I mentioned basilica? Where hava I mentioned it was a pagan temple for that matter? I did not. I know very well the origins of the basilica i.e. the Roman Tribunal. So allright, Christian church has origin in Roman tribunal, no argument there.

    However, Orthodox (Byzant, eastern) and Catholic (Roman, western) architecture (churches included) show great difference, since Catholic architecture absorbed Roman architecture, while Orthodox absorbed Greek architecture.

    The same happened in central Europe, Christianity assimilated central European slavic wooden style. Leave your religious zealotry aside and you will see clearly the patterns.

    If I remember correctly Iconography wasn't always allowed in early Christendom (it was blasphemy) but they had to accept it to win over the heathens, who represented visually their Gods. Christianity at its core is nothing more than Jewry (hell, even in the bible it says we should accept them as "chosen people")

    #349368

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    edit: kudesnik, early christians used fish or XP symbol, not cross and surely not cross with circle :)

    Pisces (fish) is a zodiac symbol too.  And cross was adopted by Christians at some point in time.

    #349369

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    pentaz those japanese surely had to replace wooden pieces because wood rots
    it also depends on type of wood…
    these churches surely couldnt exist before they were built (which is well documented). so they couldnt be pagan temple.
    not to say that we dont know if slavs in carpathian area ever build a pagan temple (building).

    but hey why do you think that wooden bar is idol?

    edit: kudesnik, early christians used fish or XP symbol, not cross and surely not cross with circle :)

    Zrkadlo, obviously Poland has Archaeologists that aren't blinded by Christian zealotry thank the Gods.

    "Under the nave floor is a crypt with graves of the Ledóchowski Family and behind the altar a Pole of the Four-faced Idol evoking ancient pre-Christian times. "

    http://www.drewniana.malopolska.pl/Pliki/ulotka_ang.pdf

    Now let's see, do we have a four-faced idol dedicated to any of the Gods? :)

    #349370

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Svetoslava, there is nothing pagan in this style of architecture. And this churches were build 100 or 200 years ago. By Christian Slavs. If you agree, last 1000 years waste majority of Slavs are Christians. Being woden or Slavic does not qualify it not being Christian.

    I don't see anything Christian in the style of this wooden architecture either. Now tell me what's so Christian on them? If someone puts a Buddhist sign on the shield, it won't make the building Buddhist as such.

    As I said.. Slavic culture = wooden culture. 1000 years ago Christianity was a thing of nobility and missionaries. And maybe you haven't noticed but Pagan practices are still normal http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,2066.msg23745.html#msg23745 . Or you think that all of those superstitions are Christian because people are officially Christians now? Or why do people look for 'witches' while having a problem? The church is one thing and their life is the other thing. There are tons of proofs of Slavic Pagan past, but you focus just on temples. That says a lot.  ;)

    Barov – does it change anything?

    #349371

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do you guys still think that anything that is learned as Christian today is in reallity really its? That is a religion made on assimilating other things into it's core.

    Inculturisation of some minor details which do not constitute Christian teaching, does not make Christianity rip-off of some Pagan religion. Espetialy if such details were acceoted from non-religious aspects of Graeco-Roman world.
    Chrisitanity did not accept polytheism, nor ethical relativity, nor cyclic concept of History, nor ananke, nor prexistance of materia that was Greek paganism, my Ladies and Gentlemen.

    Quote:
    All these Christian European saints? most pagan gods turned into saints!

    Saint Elijas -jewish prophet. Saint Peter, Saint Paul, – Christian Apostles, diciples of Christ. Saint Demethrius – Chrisitan marty officila in Thessaloniki. Saint Irinaeus of Lyon, bishop, martyr. People killed by Roman officials because of theit Christian belief are Paga dieties. Comon ;D

    Quote:
    Read about Yarilo and pisanki egg coloring among slavic pagans

    Pentaz. there is possibility that Easter eggs were not of Christian origin. But even that hypothesis states Mesopotamia as origin. Mesopotamia was not inhabitated by Slavs.

    Quote:
    Do you guys still think that anything that is learned as Christian today is in reallity really its? That is a religion made on assimilating other things into it's core.
    All these Christian European saints as St.George etc? pagan gods turned into saints!
    Christian architecture? there is no such thing, only a cross that is built upon architecture of natives.

    Pentaz, natives were building in shape of cross? Their architectre from begining was adapted for Christian worship? They painted their buildings by Christian paintings. They were using bred and wine. They were posting relics of Christian martyres in it? They developed Byzantine style, Romanic style, Gothic etc. 

    Quote:
    Christian Christmas? read about Germanic Yule,

    Nothing. Christmass was established by Roman popes in 4th century to counter Mithraistic holyday of Sol Invictus. There is no big secret about it. And Ancient Gemans were celbrating birth of Incrnated Logos of God who came to save humankind of Death? ;)

    Quote:
    All these Christian European saints as St.George etc? pagan gods turned into saints!

    Let me see. Christian marty slain because rejection of cult of Apolo. Does it sound pagan to you? He is represented killing dragon (Symbol of heathenism) to protect Girl (Symbol of Church as Christ's bride). Another Pagan symbol. ;D

    Quote:
    If I remember correctly Iconography wasn't always allowed in early Christendom (it was blasphemy) but they had to accept it to win over the heathens,

    You dont remember correctlly, in oldest Church in Dure Epirus there were wall paintings. Iconoclasm was from in VIII and IX centuries

    Quote:
    Were have I mentioned basilica? Where hava I mentioned it was a pagan temple for that matter? I did not. I know very well the origins of the basilica i.e. the Roman Tribunal. So allright, Christian church has origin in Roman tribunal, no argument there.

    Christian Church has origin is Ancient Jewish people as comunity gatherd by God to be His people. Architectural style of Christian Churches (buildings) was developed from Roman courthouse, not Tribunal (court)

    Quote:
    The same happened in central Europe, Christianity assimilated central European slavic wooden style. Leave your religious zealotry aside and you will see clearly the patterns.

    Basic problem, wooden style was developed few centuries after Christian heathenism dissaperaed. Second eror was, this Churches were built in variations of Christyan styles, and built of wood. But it does not mean that one of those Churches was built in Russian-Byzantine style.

    Quote:
    However, Orthodox (Byzant, eastern) and Catholic (Roman, western) architecture (churches included) show great difference, since Catholic architecture absorbed Roman architecture, while Orthodox absorbed Greek architecture.

    That is not correct picture, but I am not here to give leactures from history of architecture.

    Well, if that wass all of your arguments couuld we please, go back on topic whic was Cathedral of Christ Saviour. I

    #349372

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't see anything Christian in the style of this wooden architecture either. Now tell me what's so Christian on them? If someone puts a Buddhist sign on the shield, it won't make the building Buddhist as such.

    As I said, those Churches wer ebuilt in shape of Cross (Allmoast all Churches before 20th Century). It is not Christian? It has domes, perfected by Christian architecture. Also non-Christian trait? It was built to accomodate Christian worship? It was not Christian? It was built by Christians for Christians. Pagan trait? Dont think so. You are just repeating it is wooden it could not be Christian. What Christianity teaches use stone exclusively?

    #349373

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    As I said, those Churches wer ebuilt in shape of Cross (Allmoast all Churches before 20th Century). It is not Christian? It has domes, perfected by Christian architecture. Also non-Christian trait? It was built to accomodate Christian worship? It was not Christian? It was built by Christians for Christians. Pagan trait? Dont think so. You are just repeating it is wooden it could not be Christian. What Christianity teaches use stone exclusively?

    Most of your two upper posts only provide this arrogant assimilation logic of if you take someones temple and accommodate it to your needs it means it is yours and against such logic i can't really do or prove a thing.

    If i go to your local church, blast of it's dome, and put a pagan symbol…all things to accommodate me, then by your logic it is a pagan temple and it cannot be proved that it was Christian because obviously in it's present shape and existence is pagan and with everything to accommodate pagans. :)

    you still haven't commented on the Slavic Church(Saint Leonard's church in Lipnica Murowana) above :)

    #349374

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    As I said, those Churches wer ebuilt in shape of Cross (Allmoast all Churches before 20th Century). It is not Christian? It has domes, perfected by Christian architecture. Also non-Christian trait? It was built to accomodate Christian worship? It was not Christian? It was built by Christians for Christians. Pagan trait? Dont think so. You are just repeating it is wooden it could not be Christian. What Christianity teaches use stone exclusively?

    I don’t know much about theology or its history. I am assuming that Christian religion is a collection of religious texts in the two testaments and the Church is the gathering of people. Yes?  :) Then everything else is worldliness and many attributes associated with Christianity including architectural style of buildings must had been influenced by paganism. You can cross out your past, but you cannot erase it even if it is a distant past. 

    #349375

    Anonymous

    Christians didn't steal anything. Slavs became Christians and used wooden architecture to build churches like they used wood for building houses because it was most suitable in their local area. On the other hand Slavs along coastal area of Jadran used stone as a material for houses and churches because it is most suitable for that area. Only later in middle ages stone churches began to evolve in other parts and it was a gradual process.

    Quote:
    There are also Byzantine elements, but Orthodox Byzant architecture was in turn taken from pagan Greek architecture, so this does you not credit.  :P

    I don't see much similarity. Ancient Greek;

    image

    Byzantine;

    image

    PS. people i hope you all stop using your personal religious or non-religious views regarding architecture and i am critical towards all of you. Bottom line is we cant 100% know what kind of temples pagans had. Surely there are some remnants but we must consider the fact that architecture has gone trough evolution. The findings of early Slavic settlement of Prekmuje for example show us Slavs used simple zemljanka's and later by the 15th-18th century it evolved into this (so it is a huge evolutionary difference).

    image

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