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  • #412354

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    You know this how,because I know alot of Croats that don't..

    Because of the minorities that lived in Slavonija generations ago that are now grandparents of people who consider themselves Croats.

    Quote:
    Assimilation is irelevant,since the he Alamir states that we are basically one people that got divided by religion and foreign influence,and that our peoples are nothing but concepts which are the result of that influence.

    That is partly true. Serbs and Croats (and other Slavs) were one people who migrated to different places and were shaped by the influences of those places and the people they came into contact with.

    Quote:
    People do not have to be exactly the same as they were millenia ago to still be themselves.We don't even have to go that far in history.Take for instance my grandfather who spoke kajkavian,wore rubača,lived in an empire,kingdom,and communism.
    Today I speak a token kajkavian,wear modern clothes,and live in a democracy.All of those were alien to my grandfather,but he was still a Croat,as I am a Croat today.

    I'm talking about the idea of nations today. Hundreds of years ago people's primary identity was their town, region, family, etc. Rarely was it their tribe or 'nation'. Then in the 19th century this changed and suddenly people with a common language and culture decided to identify with that over everything else. If you were to ask a Croat 300 years ago what they were they would probably respond with their profession/trade, language, family name or town first.

    #412355

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Because of the minorities that lived in Slavonija generations ago that are now grandparents of people who consider themselves Croats.

    One in a thousand of overall Croats is not alot.

    That is partly true. Serbs and Croats (and other Slavs) were one people who migrated to different places and were shaped by the influences of those places and the people they came into contact with.

    Serbs and Croats came to these lands as Serbs and Croats,and some think that they may have been that even before they were Slavs.

    I'm talking about the idea of nations today. Hundreds of years ago people's primary identity was their town, region, family, etc. Rarely was it their tribe or 'nation'. Then in the 19th century this changed and suddenly people with a common language and culture decided to identify with that over everything else. If you were to ask a Croat 300 years ago what they were they would probably respond with their profession/trade, language, family name or town first.

    Illiterate people may not have known,but as I said before both Croats and Serbs are historicaly attested peoples inhabiting this region.There is plenty of evidence of continuity of both peoples.

    #412356

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    One in a thousand of overall Croats is not alot.

    Serbs and Croats came to these lands as Serbs and Croats,and some think that they may have been that even before they were Slavs.

    Illiterate people may not have known,but as I said before both Croats and Serbs are historicaly attested peoples inhabiting this region.There is plenty of evidence of continuity of both peoples.

    I don't think you're understanding me. I'm talking about nations. "Serb" and "Croat" were the names of tribes who migrated to the Balkans 1400 years ago. Nationhood was not established, that's simply what they were called.

    #412357

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't think you're understanding me. I'm talking about nations. "Serb" and "Croat" were the names of tribes who migrated to the Balkans 1400 years ago. Nationhood was not established, that's simply what they were called.

    So what is it then that you are arguing about?
    You yourself admit that Croats and Serbs have been here for 1400 years.There was always a difference,and they were never the same.

    #412358

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So what is it then that you are arguing about?
    You yourself admit that Croats and Serbs have been here for 1400 years.There was always a difference,and they were never the same.

    That nations are man-made fabrications.

    #412359

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    That nations are man-made fabrications.

    I see a Nobel in your near future.

    That has nothing to do with the claim that the Serbs and the Croats are products of religious/political influences from the 15th century onwards.

    #412360

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I see a Nobel in your near future.

    That has nothing to do with the claim that the Serbs and the Croats are products of religious/political influences from the 15th century onwards.

    If he is talking about Croat and Serb nations, then yes. If he's talking about Serb and Croat tribes, then no.

    #412361

    Anonymous

    yes these tribes existed but they're nothing like present day serbs or croats. Different empires have defined present day serbs and croats in regards to religion, scripts, and culture. I'm willing to bet that most present day serbs and croats are more illyrian than they are of ancient serb and croat tribes

    #412362

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I'm willing to bet that most present day serbs and croats are more illyrian than they are of ancient serb and croat tribes

    I believe that this is where you are wrong.Illyrian is a panethnicity (someone correct me if I'm wrong),so the term would be equivalent to the term Slav,and since both Serbs and Croats today are Slavs and not Illyrians then we are indeed more Serb and Croat that Illyrian.

    #412363

    Anonymous

    I am still shocked to see that some people think that modern nations (members of those nations) descend directly from teh ancient tribes. Svevlad is right. Nations were produced in the 19th century and this is the time when Croatian nation was made. Croatian people are artificial creation just like any human community ever made since surely God did not make Croats but couple of people grouped through common interest sometimes in history and in some territory. Ancient Croats were not same as medieval ones and modern Croats are not the same as the medieval ones.
    People from Slavonija and Dalmatia belong officially to the same ethnic group but they are completely different in any parameter including native speech, looks, costumes, mentality, way of life, etc. They are grouped together in the 19th century through Croatian national movement mostly initiated by German Croat Gaj and spread mostly by catholic clergy. This does not mean that Croatian base did not exist but Croatian nation as it exists today is a 19th century product.

    Pure ethnic lines are taken seriously nowadays only by backward people in the dinarids who always give the biggest butchers from their people.

    #412364

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I am still shocked to see that some people think that modern nations (members of those nations) descend directly from teh ancient tribes. Svevlad is right. Nations were produced in the 19th century and this is the time when Croatian nation was made. Croatian people are artificial creation just like any human community ever made since surely God did not make Croats but couple of people grouped through common interest sometimes in history and in some territory. Ancient Croats were not same as medieval ones and modern Croats are not the same as the medieval ones.
    People from Slavonija and Dalmatia belong officially to the same ethnic group but they are completely different in any parameter including native speech, looks, costumes, mentality, way of life, etc. They are grouped together in the 19th century through Croatian national movement mostly initiated by German Croat Gaj and spread mostly by catholic clergy. This does not mean that Croatian base did not exist but Croatian nation as it exists today is a 19th century product.

    Pure ethnic lines are taken seriously nowadays only by backward people in the dinarids who always give the biggest butchers from their people.

    No one said that nations aren't man made.That is stating the obvious.What I was saying is that there is a continuity of Croatian presence in this region.I am aware that the modern Croats aren't the exact same people as the ancient Croats,but I'm saying that ancient Croats didn't go extinct,they just evolved as a people by mixing and assimilating.That still doesn't mean that someone invented them in 19th century.Sure,some groups came to be accepted as Croats in the 19th century,but obviously the awareness of being Croatian survived through the ages among some.Croatian nation might not have existed prior to 19th century,but people known as Croats have been here for centuries.

    #412365

    Anonymous

    Ok, I get it now. Thanks for the clarification and I agree completely. My post was in some parts rather general since I notice that many people consider different nationalities to be God given.

    #412366

    Anonymous

    The majority has decided:Bosniaks are Slavs.

    #412367

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    The majority has decided:Bosniaks are Slavs.

    Brennus, you are like the game-time announcer of Slavorum :D

    #412368

    Anonymous

    For example bulgarian pomaks. Mostly they are muslims but if we compare them with bosniaks i can say that pomaks preserved their slavic culture more than bosniaks. Because pomaks live in high mountains and difficult to reach them. Ottomans had tried to convert pomaks to islam but generally bosniaks voluntary accepted islam.

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