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  • #354820

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    This is absolutley wrong standpont.
    1) Hochdeutsch is based on Saxonian dialect. From XV century it is language of German literature, but nontheless it is based onvernaculare in Meisen. On other hand, before Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, literary language of Serbs was not Serbian, but Old Church Slavonic and Chruch Slavonic later. This is akin to medieval Europe, literary language was Latin, not Spanish French, German. Slavjanoserpski is just suržik, not language on its own, mixture of vernaculare Serbian, Church Slavonic and RussianNevertheless, tradition of use vernacular in  literature did not start with Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, century and half before him Gavril Stefanović Venclović wrote about 10 000 pages in vernaculare.

    2) Russian words and Croatian neologisms (not intented as offense, it is ligusitc term) are not archaic Serbian words. Sometimes it is more efficient ot accept foreign word, фудбал is both game and  ball for that game. Интернацинални could be used for deriving more words than међународни.

    3) If somebody go in Zagreb in order to learn proper Serbian, he is absolutley wrong. In Zagreb they could not diferentiate č and ć, they do not differ ije and je (being ekavians), ther isn no 4 accents, but 3, there is one phonema more. If somebody wants to speak Serbian properly, he should go in Universities of Belgrade and Banja Luka (dont know about other Universities), majority of professors on that two speak proper Serbian.
    Maybe someone went in school in Croatia or something. Serbs in Drvar speak сто and soko. Their dialect is same as mine (East Herzegvonian)

    1. Concerning Hochdeutsch:


      [li]

    Standard German originated not as a traditional dialect of a specific region, but as a written language, developed over a process of several hundred years, in which writers tried to write in a way that was understood in the largest area. Until about 1800, Standard German was almost entirely a written language. In this time, people in Northern Germany, who mainly spoke Low Saxon dialects very different from Standard German, learned it as a foreign language. However, later the Northern pronunciation (of Standard German) was considered standard and spread southward; in some regions (such as around Hanover) the local dialect has completely died out with the exception of small communities of Low German speakers.[/li]

    2. Of course neologisms aren't archaic. Vodopad (neologism) > Slap (archaic), but while adopting foreign words, why do not adapt the Slavic ones? I would rather see a use of Slavic neologism (all words were neologies when they first appeared) than adopting a foreign non-Slavic vocabulary. 'The Language' is not some fu[size=1pt]'[/size]cked up car that got old, and has to be repaired with spare parts from England, Turkey or Germany, to be more efficient. It is our SLAVIC LANGUAGE, the highest, holiest, most valuable heritage we as Slavs have. Argument of efficiency is against my belief. The church maintained the purity of our language as much as it could, now in the last 150 years we see it desecrated because some peasants saw themselves capable of reforming the language to their needs, too lazy to learn their own ancestral tongue, erasing heritage for more efficiency.

    3. I do not have a high opinion about Croats, but concerning the language, they have my utmost respect. 'č and ć' is understandable, just reflect which words (of which etymology) start with 'ć', we are the only Slavs differing those two letters. The 'Zagreb aver' was meant to stir up some thought. Ijekavian, jekavian, ekavian, ikavian has brought us nothing more than 'raskol', if we use the argument of efficiency then some of that wise-heads supporting the reform should have unified the language, not create 3 or 4 different ones, that differ solely in one letter. Today we print books for west Serbs and east Serbs, just because of one letter that was changed, for no efficiency. Our linguistical standard is below every level. Croats are doing a great job with the preservation of the language, they made more out of the Serbo-Croatian standard than any Serb did, and it is our native language for fuc[size=1pt]'[/size]ks sake. Only sad thing is that they did it with the Eastern-Herzegovinian dialect, which is our native one, instead of with Cakavian dialect which is their native one.

    #354821

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    'The Language' is not some fu[size=1pt]'[/size]cked up car that got old, and has to be repaired with spare parts from England, Turkey or Germany, to be more efficient. It is our SLAVIC LANGUAGE, the highest, holiest, most valuable heritage we as Slavs have. Argument of efficiency is against my belief. The church maintained the purity of our language as much as it could, now in the last 150 years we see it desecrated because some peasants saw themselves capable of reforming the language to their needs, too lazy to learn their own ancestral tongue, erasing heritage for more efficiency.

    A very good point. If a word cannot be found in any of our languages why not trying to look for a substitute in other Slav languages?

    An example
    Airport – аэропорт (Russian) – letališče (Slovenian) – letiště (Czech)
    The substitute from either Slovenian or Czech would make a perfect sense in Russian language. The word can be modified slightly if needs to be. Летище…! It sounds good to me.

    #354822

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    A very good point. If a word can't be found in our languages why not trying to look for a substitute in other Slav languages? Why does it have to Latin, Greek, French and lately it's English?

    An example
    Airport – аэропорт (Russian) – letališče (Slovenian) – letiště (Czech)
    The substitute from either Slovenian or Czech would make a perfect sense in Russian language. The word can be modified slightly if needs to be. Летище…! It sounds good to me.

    Croats are famous for exactly that method, taking other Slavic words as neologisms or substitutes, rather than taking foreign non-Slavic ones. Eventhough it is laughed at by my generation, as well as by Croats themselves and especially by the Serbs, it is not about my generation, or the generation older than me. The language is there for my children, and grand-children, for our descendants. I may laugh at the word, samohod, but my children won't. My generation may find these words funny and unusable in common conversation, we will surely use the words we learned or are used to, but I would like to see my children learn to speak Serbian and Slavic, not English, German or Turkish.

    I hope the trend will proceed, my ancestors used far more foreign words than I use now, and hopefully my children and grand-children will use even less than me.

    #354823

    Anonymous

    In Slovene history is zgodovina and povest is story, tale. :D

    #354824

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Croats are famous for exactly that method, taking other Slavic words as neologisms or substitutes, rather than taking foreign non-Slavic ones. Eventhough it is laughed at by my generation, as well as by Croats themselves and especially by the Serbs, it is not about my generation, or the generation older than me. The language is there for my children, and grand-children, for our descendants. I may laugh at the word, samohod, but my children won't. My generation may find these words funny and unusable in common conversation, we will surely use the words we learned or are used to, but I would like to see my children learn to speak Serbian and Slavic, not English, German or Turkish.

    I hope the trend will proceed, my ancestors used far more foreign words than I use now, and hopefully my children and grand-children will use even less than me.

    That’s right. The words may sound funny and awkward to use. They wouldn’t be funny for the younger generation who would grow up with the words.

    Samohod doesn’t sound funny to me. We have this word in Russian language
    Or, самолет (airplane), самокат (scooter) and many other words similarly formed.

    We need a legislation that prevents organisations and advertisements agencies from using foreign words unless no substitute can be found. I think similar legislations exist in some  countries. I can't remember in which countries. Otherwise foreign words will infest our languages quickly.

    #354825

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    That’s right. The word may sound funny and awkward to use, it wouldn’t be funny for the younger generation who would grow up with the words.
    And
    Samohod doesn’t sound funny to me. We have this word in Russian language
    We also have ‘lunohod’ – a machine sent to the Moon
    Or, самолет (airplane), самокат (scooter) and many other words similarly formed.

    We need a legislation that prevents organisations and advertisements agencies from using foreign words unless no substitute can be found. I think similar legislation exist in some developed countries. I can't remember in which countries.

    It does for us, since we do not use it, samolet as well. We use auto and avion, true 'slavic' words :). Croats have zrakoplov, which is also nice.

    We need a legislation that prevents organisations and advertisements agencies from using foreign words unless no substitute can be found. I think similar legislation exist in some developed countries. I can't remember in which countries.

    Yes we do, I cannot believe the crap I am seeing in the printed or even visual media. People using vulgar, colloquial language on TV and newspapers has to be prohibited. It is true I use turkcisms in my colloquial language, I say комшија instead of сусјед, but to hear such colloquialism, or vulgar language on the TV or read it in the newspaper, when a substitute does exist, is just wrong. I use it since my forefathers weren't able to learn it better in school or in general education, I as well wasn't able to do that, but my children HAVE to be able to learn Serbian Slavic in their life.

    I would go so far to say it is the matter of general dignity of the nation.

    #354826

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It does for us, since we do not use it, samolet as well. We use auto and avion, true 'slavic' words :). Croats have zrakoplov, which is also nice.

    Do you know how we call helicopter? Вертолет (vertolet). ;D It’s formed from two words: вертеть (to spin) and летать (to fly).  :)

    #354827

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. Concerning Hochdeutsch:


      [li]

    Standard German originated not as a traditional dialect of a specific region, but as a written language, developed over a process of several hundred years, in which writers tried to write in a way that was understood in the largest area.

    Even that written language started from  somewhere ie from:
    When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he based his translation mainly on the bureaucratic standard language used in Saxony (sächsische Kanzleisprache), also known as Meißner-Deutsch (German from the city of Meissen). This language was based on Eastern Upper and Eastern Central German dialects and preserved much of the grammatical system of Middle High German (unlike the spoken German dialects in Central and Upper Germany, which had already at that time begun to lose the genitive case and the preterit). Roman Catholics rejected Luther's translation initially and tried to create their own Catholic standard (gemeines Deutsch) — which, however, differed from "Protestant German" only in some minor details. Each literary language in history of world was based on some vernacular, Church Slavonic, whic we used then was based on speach of long time extinct Thesaloniki Slavs with strong admixture of vernaculare Russian and Ukrainian, because it was developed there.

    Quote:
    Ijekavian, jekavian, ekavian, ikavian has brought us nothing more than 'raskol', if we use the argument of efficiency then some of that wise-heads supporting the reform should have unified the language, not create 3 or 4 different ones, that differ solely in one letter.

    Nobody created Ijekavian and ekavian, people allready speaked that why. It was mistake of Stojan Novaković who introduced ekavian in literary standard, but he did not invented, people east of Morava, people in Vojvodina and speakers of Timok-Niš dialect allready were speaking that way.

    Quote:
    The church maintained the purity of our language as much as it could, now in the last 150 years we see it desecrated because some peasants saw themselves capable of reforming the language to their needs, too lazy to learn their own ancestral tongue, erasing heritage for more efficiency.

    For the last time. It was not our language it was language of extinct Thessaloniki Slavs in Russian redaction, our Church did not preserve that language it came to us with books from Russia. Before that we had our own redaction of that language (under influence of Serbian vernaculare) as language of literature. Legal matters and personal corespondence was written in vernaculare, with certain admixture of literary SerboSlavonic (Serbian redaction of Old Church Slavonic). It was language of our literatutre but not language of our ancestors, only smal educated elite knew that language. Scribes in small cities and priests in willages offten mixed it with vernaculare because they did notverry well (same thing happened all over the Europe in Byzantine Empire with Byzantine Greek towards Modern Greek, in Spain for exmaple Latin and Castellano, in Russia Church Slavonic and Middle Russian). Serbian language which we speak was more or less same in 14th century (according to some researches reflexions of yat accured even earlier).

    Quote:
    3. I do not have a high opinion about Croats, but concerning the language, they have my utmost respect. 'č and ć' is understandable, just reflect which words (of which etymology)

    Croatian language policy is even bigger mess than Serbian IMHO. They could not decide whether to follow phonological or etimological morphonological ortography, they use standard language with accentuation very small proportion of Croats acctually use, smae goes with using ijekavian standard while they are mainy ikavians end ekavians etc etc. Concerning ч/ћ differenitaition it is absolutle untrue:
    voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate (/tɕ/) is present in Polish, Russian and Serbian (as far as I know). They wrote it different but it is same consonat.

    Quote:
    2. Of course neologisms aren't archaic. Vodopad (neologism) > Slap (archaic), but while adopting foreign words, why do not adapt the Slavic ones? I would rather see a use of Slavic neologism (all words were neologies when they first appeared) than adopting a foreign non-Slavic vocabulary. 'The Language' is not some fu[size=1pt]'[/size]cked up car that got old, and has to be repaired with spare parts from England, Turkey or Germany, to be more efficient. It is our SLAVIC LANGUAGE, the highest, holiest, most valuable heritage we as Slavs have. Argument of efficiency is against my belief. The church maintained the purity of our language as much as it could, now in the last 150 years we see it desecrated because some peasants saw themselves capable of reforming the language to their needs, too lazy to learn their own ancestral tongue, erasing heritage for more efficiency.

    There is no single Slavic language for at least 1500 years. But to continue, you would be surprised how many words of Proto-Slavic language were borowed from other languages (церкы, букы, and хоргувъ). If you go to purge foreign words from slavic languages you will criple them. It is allways good to have your own word, but you should be carefull in forging one. It is no slow proces allways, we had шрафцигер first latter came одвијач.

    #354828

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do you know how we call helicopter? Вертолет (vertolet). ;D It’s formed from two words: вертеть (to spin) and летать (to fly).  :)

    Do you know that an Russian inveneted helicopter :)

    #354829

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Great information, thank you.

    I support the use of the vernacular as the literary linguistical basis, especially Eastern Herzegovinian since it is the most wide spread, with the highest amount of modern literary works preserved in it (as I believe). In other words, vernacular should build the grammatical basis of the [shadow=grey,right]Standard[/shadow].

    I object however the use of foreign words, also those words that are used as colloquialisms (especially turkcisms) as well as newly-imported Anglicisms, Germanisms, Galicisms, that do have a substitute in the Serbian linguistical heritage (OCS, Slavjanoserbski etc.) and not necessarily in the common vernacular, in the [shadow=grey,right]Standard[/shadow]. Those words that are non-Slavic, thus foreign, but do not have a substitute in the Serbian linguistical heritage, should form a substitute based upon All-Slav linguistical heritage, e.g. пешкир > укр. рушник.

    Those words that do not have a substitute other than foreign, should stay in their foreign form.

    Colloquial language will stay colloquial, people will talk with vulgarisms, foreign words, imported words from new trends. [shadow=grey,right]The Standard[/shadow] however should stay preserved as what it is, a literary standard, with as less as possible foreign non-Slavic influence upon it.

    As for the writing standard, I support the reinstating of the letter 'jat', to unify the four reflextions of one letter into one uniform standardised language. How one pronounces it, is his individual or regional preference. A similar trend we can see with the letter 'č / ч' which is one, but pronounced differently according to individual or regional preference among Croats for example, I believe with time it will with 'ć' merge into one letter. With differentiation I meant in script rather than spoken. Furthermore I am against double-scripts, Latin should be abolished, only Azbuka (Cyrillics) should be used, we are not building a state with other ethnicities anymore, therefore there is no need for foreign scripts in our standard anymore.

    The media is obliged to follow [shadow=grey,right]the Standard[/shadow], not some cra[size=1pt]'[/size]p they learn on the street, or brought back from home.


      [li]This is my stance, upon that matter.[/li]

    [hr]

    Quote:
    There is no single Slavic language for at least 1500 years.

    I know there isn't, nevertheless it is our Serbian form of the Slavic language, which we share with other Slavs.

    #354830

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do you know that an Russian inveneted helicopter :)

    I don’t think all of the design and development of helicopter can be attributed to a single person. In the past many worked on the project and made some contribution to the design and development of helicopter. In 1910 Igor Sikorsky completed what was started before him in 19th century.

    I didn’t know that the Russian engineer was first to design a helicopter that could lift its own weight. I read on the Internet just now. :)

    As for the word вертолет it was introduced to Russian language in 1940s The original word used was геликоптер which was borrowed from French who in turn barrowed it from Greek.

    #354831

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do you know that an Russian inveneted helicopter :)

    I thought it was the Breguet  brothers?

    #354832

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Great information, thank you.

    I support use of vernacular as the literary linguistical basis, especially Eastern Herzegovinian since it is the most wide spread, with the highest amount of modern literary works preserved in it (as I believe). In other words, vernacular should build the grammatical basis of the [shadow=grey,right]Standard[/shadow].

    I object however the use of foreign words, also those words that are used as colloquialisms (especially turkcisms) as well as newly-imported Anglicisms, Germanisms, Galicisms, that do have a substitute in the Serbian linguistical heritage (OCS, Slavjanoserbski etc.) not necessarily vernacular, in the [shadow=grey,right]Standard[/shadow]. Those words that are non-Slavic, thus foreign, but do not have a substitute in the Serbian linguistical heritage, should form a substitute based upon All-Slav linguistical heritage, e.g. пешкир > укр. рушник.

    Those words that do not have a substitute other than foreign, should stay in their foreign form.

    Colloquial language will stay colloquial, people will talk with vulgarisms, foreign words, imported words from new trends. [shadow=grey,right]The Standard[/shadow] however should stay preserved as what it is, a literary standard, with as less as possible foreign non-Slavic influence upon it.

    As for the writing standard, I support the reinstating of the letter 'jat', to unify the four reflextions of one letter into one uniform standardised language. How one pronounces it, is his individual or regional preference. A similar trend we can see with the letter 'č / ч' which is one, but pronounced differently according to individual or regional preference among Croats for example, I believe with time it will with 'ć' merge into one letter. With differentiation I meant in script rather than spoken. Furthermore I am against double-scripts, Latin should be abolished, only Azbuka (Cyrillics) should be used, we are not building a state with other ethnicities anymore, therefore there is no need for foreign scripts in our standard anymore.

    The media is obliged to follow [shadow=grey,right]the Standard[/shadow], not some cra[size=1pt]'[/size]p they learn on the street, or brought back from home.


      [li]This is my stance, upon that matter.[/li]

    [hr]

    I know there isn't, nevertheless it is our Serbian form of the Slavic language, which we share with other Slavs.

    Well, Vuk certainly did lot erors, there was no need for radical cut with previous literary tradition. I dont think it is completely his mistake, lot of it was done latter (for example when our western taught intelectuals started importing latin concepts, while we had Shurch Slavonic terms). Vuk was self-taught folklorist and was not allwaays able to see what is foreign and what is slavic, main mistake was his translation of New Testament, because he laked knowledge for such deed.
    But I would not be that much pesimistic, our language is in danger by language imperialism it is true, but there are positive signs, in technology patern is like this: first we use borrowed or foreign word (компјутер is boorowed it fits in Serbian phonology pretty well, but for example браузер sound awkard in Serbian) for some time and after we are starting to use Serbian words (рачунар, веб прегледач(Mozilla and Google accpeted that therm, it originated in translation of KDE, Linux GUI)), Main problem is when you go in foreign ambasade they are forcing you to write in Latin, foreign companie do not respect fact that most of Serbs write in Cyrillic (handwriting), well  we are guilt at certian degree for that, Serbs tend not to use Cyrillic on internet, nor care to us localized software, which is grave mistake. In Germany you could not find computer with interface in English, in France likewise.

    #354833

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I thought it was the Breguet  brothers?

    Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky made first functional helicopter, well firts concepts were drawn by Leonardo Da Vinci, nevertheless Sikorsky's helicopter was first actual helicopter. Bregeuts were making airoplans.

    #354834

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky made first functional helicopter, well firts concepts were drawn by Leonardo Da Vinci, nevertheless Sikorsky's helicopter was first actual helicopter. Bregeuts were making airoplans.

      [li]

    "In 1905, with his brother Jacques, and under the guidance of Charles Richet, he began work on a gyroplane (the forerunner of the helicopter) with flexible wings. It achieved the first ascent of a vertical-flight aircraft with a pilot in 1907."[/li]

    I think these guys built the first working helicopter, or at least the prototype of the helicopter.

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