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  • #354745

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I know what is written in Wikipedia. Languages are classified by level of mutual intelligibility, not by random grouping.

    Definition of dialect according to Oxford Dictionary:


      [li]

    The form of a language that is spoken in one area with grammar, words and pronunciation that may be different from other forms of the same language[/li]

    Quote:
    Could you understand this?

    Of course not, I don't speak the dialect. I speak English fluently yet I can't understand the Cockney English dialect, even though it's a dialect of English. I don't know how fluent you are in English, but can you understand this?


      [li]

    I was going for a ruby down the frog in the jar when the bone went. Cor blimey if it weren't the trouble. She'd had her barnet done and bought a new tit for tat now her plates were giving her jip. Well she gave me a real north and south full 'bout the porkies I told her 'bout the waitress that I had rested my mince pies on, so I puts on me new whistle and peckham rye 'nd we went down the rub a dub dub and she had a cuppa rosey and I had a jar. Sorted.[/li]

    #354746

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Definition of dialect according to Oxford Dictionary:


      [li]

    The form of a language that is spoken in one area with grammar, words and pronunciation that may be different from other forms of the same language[/li]

    How does this contradict my claim?
    Serbo-Croatian is common literary language of Serbs and Croats. Name Serbo-Croatian was officially established on joint Vienna Literary Agreement of 1850 while Serb and Croat lands were still part of the Ottoman and Habsburg Empires. Officially, the language was called variously Serbo-Croat, Croato-Serbian, Serbian and Croatian, Croatian and Serbian, Serbian or Croatian, Croatian or Serbian, depending of place.  Serbo-Croatian never existed as vernaculare.
    Čakavian and Kajkavian are exclusively part of Croatian history, literature etc, there is no link between Serbian literature and that language.

    #354747

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    How does this contradict my claim?
    Serbo-Croatian is common literary language of Serbs and Croats. Name Serbo-Croatian was officially established on joint Vienna Literary Agreement of 1850 while Serb and Croat lands were still part of the Ottoman and Habsburg Empires. Officially, the language was called variously Serbo-Croat, Croato-Serbian, Serbian and Croatian, Croatian and Serbian, Serbian or Croatian, Croatian or Serbian, depending of place.  Serbo-Croatian never existed as vernaculare.
    Čakavian and Kajkavian are exclusively part of Croatian history, literature etc, there is no link between Serbian literature and that language.

    Serbo-Croatian is both Serbian and Croatian. So dialects within those languages are dialects within Serbo-Croatian. Chakavian and Kajkavian aren't dialects of Serbian, they're dialects of Serbo-Croatian.

    #354748

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Serbo-Croatian is both Serbian and Croatian. So dialects within those languages are dialects within Serbo-Croatian. Chakavian and Kajkavian aren't dialects of Serbian, they're dialects of Serbo-Croatian.

    Serbo-Croat was common literary language of Serbs and Croats from 1850 till 1990, it was based on Štokavian dialect. Čakavian dialect was base for Croatian literary language from XI till XVI century, Kajkavian was basis for Croatian literary language from XVI till 1837.

    #354749

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Serbo-Croat was common literary language of Serbs and Croats from 1850 till 1990, it was based on Štokavian dialect. Čakavian dialect was base for Croatian literary language from XI till XVI century, Kajkavian was basis for Croatian literary language from XVI till 1837.

    I'm not talking about the standard language. In between those years, Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian (and sometimes Torlakian) were the dialects of Serbo-Croatian. The standard for Serbo-croatian however, was only Shtokavian. Do yo understand the difference?

    #354750

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I'm not talking about the standard language. In between those years, Kajkavian, Chakavian and Shtokavian (and sometimes Torlakian) were the dialects of Serbo-Croatian. The standard for Serbo-croatian however, was only Shtokavian. Do yo understand the difference?

    I understand what you want to tell me, but  Serbo-Croatian as language existed only between 1850 and 1990, there was no such thing before it.

    #354751

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I understand what you want to tell me, but  Serbo-Croatian as language existed only between 1850 and 1990, there was no such thing before it.

    Ok, but I wasn't arguing it's existence, only the dialects of it.

    #354752

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Ok, but I wasn't arguing it's existence, only the dialects of it.

    Well, if you acceptpoint that Čajkavaian and Kajkavian are dialects of Serbo-Croatian, you apriori accept its exsistanec prior to 1850s. Both Serbian and Croatian linguist today reject existance of Serbo-Croatian prior to 1850s. There are some exceptions, but I speak about majority.

    #354753

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well, if you acceptpoint that Čajkavaian and Kajkavian are dialects of Serbo-Croatian, you apriori accept its exsistanec prior to 1850s. Both Serbian and Croatian linguist today reject existance of Serbo-Croatian prior to 1850s. There are some exceptions, but I speak about majority.

    What? I'm talking when it was part of Yugoslavia (KoY+SFRY).

    #354754

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    What? I'm talking when it was part of Yugoslavia (KoY+SFRY).

    Well, eve then Serbo-Croatin (basicall name of language in schools) was Štokavian. In Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Serbs wer calling language Serboan, Croats Croatian, altough there was common accetance it is same language. (Aleksandar Belić wrote his Ortography then). This is typical proble of point of wiew. In SFRY, there were grammars who considered all vernaculars from Macedonia to Slovena as one language (Serbo-Croatian), but as soon SFRY dissapeard, language dissapeared also.

    #354755

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well, eve then Serbo-Croatin (basicall name of language in schools) was Štokavian. In Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Serbs wer calling language Serboan, Croats Croatian, altough there was common accetance it is same language. (Aleksandar Belić wrote his Ortography then). This is typical proble of point of wiew. In SFRY, there were grammars who considered all vernaculars from Macedonia to Slovena as one language (Serbo-Croatian), but as soon SFRY dissapeard, language dissapeared also.

    I'm aware. However, even though it wasn't taught in schools, Chakavian and Kajkavian were still spoken back then and were part of the Serbo-Croatian language.

    #354756

    Anonymous

    this is all most intriguing.
    ;D

    #354757

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I'm aware. However, even though it wasn't taught in schools, Chakavian and Kajkavian were still spoken back then and were part of the Serbo-Croatian language.

    You are missing the point. Kajakvian and Čakavian were spoken, but nevertheless incluson of that two dialects into Serbo-Croatian was artficial.
    Serbo-Croatian was based upon Štokavian dialect, it was only common standard for Serbian and Croatian language, not samw with Serbian+Croatian (+ others).

    #354758

    Anonymous

    so its like this?
    edit: i mean that štokavski is common for both serbians and croatians but čakavski and kajkavski only for croatians, right?

    #354759

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    so its like this?
    edit: i mean that štokavski is common for both serbians and croatians but čakavski and kajkavski only for croatians, right?

    Да, тако. :)

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