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  • #354760

    Anonymous

    Personaly i believe Čakavian and Kajkavian are separate from Serbo-Croatian altho they are similar to Štokavian. However i am undecided how to classify them.

    #354761

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Personaly i believe Čakavian and Kajkavian are separate from Serbo-Croatian altho they are similar to Štokavian. However i am undecided how to classify them.

    Čakavian – native Croat language
    Štokavian – native Serb language
    Kajkavian – native Slovene Language

    Since we all inhabited the same region, the languages got mixed, especially Serbian (Štokavian) became widespread because of the Great Serb Migrations towards the north.

    Kajkavian, Čakavian and Štokavian are considered 'dialects' only by the Croats, because of the national political reason, speaking all three languages, Croats would be divided if the languages were called by their native names. Since the communists worked on erasing lesser ethnicities for the one big one, namely Yugoslav, they named Serbian > Štokavian, Slovenian > Kajkavian, Croatian > Čakavian after the respective words for 'what'. Serbs unlike Croats do not speak other languages (Slovenian/Kajkavian and Croatian/Čakavian), they only speak Serbian.

    One of the dialects the Serbs speak is Eastern-Hercegovinian, and this dialect  being the most widespread Serbian dialect of all of the Serbian language was taken as the prime standard of the literary language of Yugoslavia (SHS), also called Serbo-Croatian, with most literature (Serbian epic poetry, Dubrovnik renaissance literature etc.) written in it, it had the highest prestige. Also it is a dialect spoken in the core of the old Serbian ethnic region (the highlands), from which the most Serbs bear ancestry from.

    Standard Serbo-Croatian was the Eastern-Herzegovinian dialect of the Serbian language with two reflexes of jat, the ekavian and ijekavian, now it is only called Standard Serbian (out of obvious reasons).

    Why so much complexity in such a simple matter one may ask, well because of the politics as usual. Since Croats adopted a Serbian dialect (Eastern-Herzegovinian) as their literary language as well (although they had their own language Čakavian), it was unwise to tell the common Croats that they should learn to write and speak in Serbian, so they called it Štokavian. To this day 'Štokavian' or Serbian (more precisely its Eastern-Hercegovinian dialect), is the prime standard among Croats, as well as other new Yugoslav ethnicities invented in the 90's.

    #354762

    Anonymous

    Ok folks i have transferred many of your posts from National Heroes thread to Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian thread. So we can debate about these things without trolling on National Heroes thread. ;) :D

    #354763

    Anonymous

    Excellent idea Povhec :)

    #354764

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Ok folks i have transferred many of your posts from National Heroes thread so that we can debate about this without trolling on National Heroes thread. ;) :D

    Take them all and put it in here Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian, no need for multi-threading.

    #354765

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Take them all and put it in here Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian, no need for multi-threading.

    It has been done! :)

    #354766

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Čakavian – native Croat language
    Štokavian – native Serb language
    Kajkavian – native Slovene Language

    Since we all inhabited the same region, the languages got mixed, especially Serbian (Štokavian) became widespread because of the Great Serb Migrations towards the north.

    Kajkavian, Čakavian and Štokavian are considered 'dialects' only by the Croats, because of the national political reason, speaking all three languages, Croats would be divided if the languages were called by their native names. Since the communists worked on erasing lesser ethnicities for the one big one, namely Yugoslav, they named Serbian > Štokavian, Slovenian > Kajkavian, Croatian > Čakavian after the respective words for 'what'. Serbs unlike Croats do not speak other languages (Slovenian/Kajkavian and Croatian/Čakavian), they only speak Serbian.

    One of the dialects the Serbs speak is Eastern-Hercegovinian, and this dialect  being the most widespread Serbian dialect of all of the Serbian language was taken as the prime standard of the literary language of Yugoslavia (SHS), also called Serbo-Croatian, with most literature (Serbian epic poetry, Dubrovnik renaissance literature etc.) written in it, it had the highest prestige. Also it is a dialect spoken in the core of the old Serbian ethnic region (the highlands), from which the most Serbs bear ancestry from.

    Standard Serbo-Croatian was the Eastern-Herzegovinian dialect of the Serbian language with two reflexes of jat, the ekavian and ijekavian, now it is only called Standard Serbian (out of obvious reasons).

    Why so much complexity in such a simple matter one may ask, well because of the politics as usual. Since Croats adopted a Serbian dialect (Eastern-Herzegovinian) as their literary language as well (although they had their own language Čakavian), it was unwise to tell the common Croats that they should learn to write and speak in Serbian, so they called it Štokavian. To this day 'Štokavian' or Serbian (more precisely its Eastern-Hercegovinian dialect), is the prime standard among Croats, as well as other new Yugoslav ethnicities invented in the 90's.

    So in linguistic terms Slavonian's are Catholic Serbs? However i must say that national identity according to language is relatively new idea for example Americans speak English yet they regard themselves separate from English. Similar scenario in Duchy of Carniola or other duchies under Habsburg crown. Carniolan was any one living in Duchy of Carniola regardless of his native language.

    #354767

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So in linguistic terms Slavonian's are Catholic Serbs? However i must say that national identity according to language is relatively new idea for example Americans speak English yet they regard themselves separate from English. Similar scenario in Duchy of Carniola or other duchies under Habsburg crown. Carniolan was any one living in Duchy of Carniola regardless of his native language.

    No of course not, language is not ethnicity, also Slavonians or Šokci, are a different ethnographic group than Croats, they have a distinct language, culture and tradition, differentiating them from other Croats, were however croatised in the course of the time. In Serbia they are considered a separate ethnos like the Bunjevci.

    #354768

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    No of course not, language is not ethnicity, also Slavonians or Šokci, are a different ethnographic group than Croats, they have a distinct language, culture and tradition, differentiating them from other Croats, were however croatised in the course of the time. In Serbia they are considered a separate ethnos like the Bunjevci.

    image

    I heard also that during Ottoman Invasion while Serbia wasn't a country for 500 years there was a lot of Orthodox churches built in Bosnia where Ottomans have alowed for Orthodox chruch to baptize the locals and assimilate. I also heard that Vojvodina has a different culture from rest of Serbia as well. I wonder why these people are called Serbs today also.

    #354769

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I heard also that during Ottoman Invasion while Serbia wasn't a country for 500 years there was a lot of Orthodox churches built in Bosnia where Ottomans have alowed for Orthodox chruch to baptize the locals and assimilate. I also heard that Vojvodina has a different culture from rest of Serbia as well. I wonder why these people are called Serbs today also.

    Just stated the information present. As for Vojvodina, it is true since they were in the Habsburg Empire, nonetheless they are of the same ancestry as the rest of us, the ones in Bosnia as well. They are called Serbs because they are Serbs, they descend from the same people, not because of the church.

    Orthodox churches weren't built to assimilate, they built mosques for that.

    #354770

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Just stated the information present. As for Vojvodina, it is true since they were in the Habsburg Empire, nonetheless they are of the same ancestry as the rest of us, the ones in Bosnia as well. They are called Serbs because they are Serbs, they descend from the same people, not because of the church.

    Orthodox churches weren't built to assimilate, they built mosques for that.

    But once before you said Croatia doesn't has the continuity because of Austro-Hungary thus you wrote some mumbo jumbo about Croatian nobility actually being Hungarians then. So basically those people that migrated became citizens of Hungary so by considering your logic they aren't Serbs. During those 500 years there were only Hungarians and Turks on the territory, i see no Serbia on maps there neither such a country right? Btw on whom do modern day Serbia draws it's ties to if the continuity is non-existent due to a hole of 500 years, are you sure you're an original Serb?

    #354771

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    But once before you said Croatia doesn't has the continuity because of Austro-Hungary thus you wrote some mumbo jumbo about Croatian nobility actually being Hungarians then. So basically those people that migrated became citizens of Hungary so by considering your logic they aren't Serbs. During those 500 years there were only Hungarians and Turks on the territory, i see no Serbia on maps there neither such a country right? Btw on whom do modern day Serbia draws it's ties to if the continuity is non-existent due to a hole of 500 years, are you sure you're an original Serb?

    Croatia has cultural continuity, you preserved it, you do not speak Hungarian, and never saw yourself as Hungarians, that has to be respected. Citizenship is not ethnicity. Croatian nobility seized to exist with the death of King Petar Svacic, nobility of Croat ancestry like Subici – Zrinski, were Croats, but a Hungarian nobility, since it was Hungary. Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was a Serb, but surely not Serbian nobility, but Ottoman.

    Yes I am :) … Serbs know their kinship, and ancestry, it is what makes us Serb.

    #354772

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I heard also that during Ottoman Invasion while Serbia wasn't a country for 500 years there was a lot of Orthodox churches built in Bosnia where Ottomans have alowed for Orthodox chruch to baptize the locals and assimilate.

    I also heard that man who wrote that was Roman Catholic priest with strong connections to Ustaša regime, but as I told numerous times, better not to pull such arguments. I think that you also wrote something similary. ;)

    Quote:
    I heard also that during Ottoman Invasion while Serbia wasn't a country for 500 years there was a lot of Orthodox churches built in Bosnia where Ottomans have alowed for Orthodox chruch to baptize the locals and assimilate. I also heard that Vojvodina has a different culture from rest of Serbia as well. I wonder why these people are called Serbs today also.

    Maybe fact that bans of Bosnia mentioned Serbs numerous times in their diplomas, have something to do with presence of Serbs in Bosnia. As far for Vojvodina, it is nicely documented about migrations of Serbs there.

    #354773

    Anonymous

    [email protected] title of the topic. As a Montenegrin who speaks a Zeta dialect that is typical for Montengro I give you permision to remove the "Montenegrin" part from the title :)

    #354774

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Croatia has cultural continuity, you preserved it, that has to be respected. Citizenship is not ethnicity. Croatian nobility seized to exist with the death of King Petar Svacic, nobility of Croat ancestry like Subici – Zrinski, were Croats, but a Hungarian nobility, since it was Hungary. Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was a Serb, but surely not Serbian nobility, but Ottoman.

    Yes I am :) … Serbs know their kinship, and ancestry, it is what makes us Serb.

    Oh i see, so there was no Serbization of people including changing their faith and surnames into Serbian ones? Such as Vlachs in Croatia (Lika, Dalmatinska Zagora,) and in Bosnia, and turning them into "Serbs"?  ::) or Serbization of Macedonians and Bulgarians into Serbs with changing their surnames from (example) Popov into Popović etc.

    Krajina? well let's look at the Vlach Voivod writing to a bishop:
    "…da bi Laških sinov ne bilo, puste bi Kraine bile, nego se s nimi Kraine brane i podpiraju i oni su kakti jedan čit. I to dobro znate vaše gospodstvo, da smo jedna bratia, da oni ne mogu prez nas živi biti, kako ti ni mi prez nih. Tako nemoite nas bantuvati ni burkati Kraine med sobom. Ja ne možem kraine deržati ar se ona hoće zadovoljiti i fantiti."

    I guess one of your politicians, Šešelj, is and ethnic old-rooted Serb as well? :)

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