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  • #354805

    Anonymous

    Well, Svetoslava look at this:
    Those 3 actors were Serbs, kid actor is Italian, younger Guy with moustache and kid played two Bosniaks, Guy with beard played Russian emigrant, older guy with moustache played Serb. Director is Serb, scriptwriter is Bosniak, film was filmed in Serbia.
    If you ask Serbs it is Serbian, if you ask Bosniaks it is Bosniak, (I think Croats are mostly uninteresed in that dispute)

    Otac na sluzbenom putu – Sve je dobro kad se dobro svrsi :-)

    #354806

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    But there must be certain differences that I'm not able to distinguish in spoken language yet (like I am usually able to do so between Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian). Though Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are closer to each other than Slovenian, Serbian / Croatian and Bulgarian.

    Core Croatian (from Zagreb area) has a different accentuation, and from that resulting, a pace of pronunciation than Serbian, namely it is formed upon the Kajkavian dialect, which ends with 'l' rather than 'o'. Namely razumel, instead of razumio/razumeo (like in Serbian, or standard Serbo-Croatian).

    For Croats to speak the standard, they have to change their speaking habit, their accentuation as well as pace of pronunciation; which for the Serbian ears sounds enforced and unnatural (therefore funny :) ), since Croats are not used speaking like that. This, together with the mistaking of č and ć, as well as its merging in one sound mostly (Croats although having both letters, rarely differ between them), is the main trait upon which a Serbian speaker would recognise a Croatian speaker. There are also vocabulary differences, common Serbs speak a more vulgar variant of Serbo-Croatian than Croats, using a lot of slang words, which Croats do not use. Serbs also use 'dakanje' while building the infinitive, Croats don't or very rarely. Although 'dakanje' is as far as I know not standard, Serbs are used to it and would rarely speak otherwise. Idem raditi > Idem da radim

    Bosniaks use a lot more turkish words in their vocabulary. The pronunciation is the same as in Serbian, only the accent is regionally different. They are also known for inserting the letter 'h' in most words that allow it, like lako > lahako, kafa > kahva, sat > sahat, as well as losing vowels in pronunciation of some words, Sarajevo > Sarajvo etc.

    Here one can hear them all (Bosniak, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian, Slovenian, Albanian speaking Serbian). Try to figure out who's who.

    kursađije

    #354807

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    They are also known for inserting the letter 'h' in most words that allow it, like lako > lahako, kafa > kahva, sat > sahat.

    I've never heard this from Bosniak speakers ??? People tell me we use the H a lot, but I can never hear it in everyday speak. And I've definitely haven't heard people say Sahat or Lahako (maybe that's Sarajevan slang or dialect?). When someone asks me for coffee they ask me hoćeš kafu. The coffee one actually sounds like it's true, though, when I hear it, it sounds like it's spelt kahfa (but that's rare).

    Though, we find it funny when Serbs from Serbia take out the H in some words, e.g. Odža instead of Hodža ;D

    #354808

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I've never heard this from Bosniak speakers ??? People tell me we use the H a lot, but I can never hear it in everyday speak. And I've definitely haven't heard people say Sahat or Lahako (maybe that's Sarajevan slang or dialect?). When someone asks me for coffee they ask me hoćeš kafu. The coffee one actually sounds like it's true, though, when I hear it, it sounds like it's spelt kahfa (but that's rare).

    Though, we find it funny when Serbs from Serbia take out the H in some words, e.g. Odža instead of Hodža ;D

    You will hear it in Bosnia, it is 'the Bosniak language' spoken when trying to emphasize that it is different from Serbian and Croatian. (Lahko, not lahako, typo) Sahat is the original word, sat is the Serbianised/Croatised version of it, Serbs actually say час / čas, not sat. Not all Bosniaks speak like that however, just the ones speaking 'Bosniak or Bosnian', emphasizing that it is different than Serbian/Croatian.

    Here is a Bosniak cartoon, synchronised on Bosniak or Bosnian language.
    Odnos prema komsijama (crtani film sinhronizovano na Bosanski)

    #354809

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    You will hear it in Bosnia, it is 'the Bosniak language' spoken when trying to emphasize that it is different from Serbian and Croatian. (Lahko, not lahako, typo) Sahat is the original word, sat is the Serbianised/Croatised version of it, Serbs actually say час / čas, not sat. Not all Bosniaks speak like that however, just the ones speaking 'Bosniak or Bosnian', emphasizing that it is different than Serbian/Croatian.

    When you say Sat, are you referring to Hour, or something else? Because I use both Sat and Čas, but they mean different things to me.

    Quote:
    Here is a Bosniak cartoon, sycnhronised on Bosniak or Bosnian language.
    Odnos prema komsijama (crtani film sinhronizovano na Bosanski)

    Islamski Studio Taqwa? I'm not surprised that they would use so much Arabic and Persian words ;D
    Usually, the more religious a Bosniak is, the more likely they are to use Turkisms.

    #354810

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    When you say Sat, are you referring to Hour, or something else? Because I use both Sat and Čas, but they mean different things to me.

    Islamski Studio Taqwa? I'm not surprised that they would use so much Arabic and Persian words ;D
    Usually, the more religious a Bosniak is, the more likely they are to use Turkisms.

    Yes Sahat or Sat is hour. Čas you probably use as 'moment', the same way Croats do, Serbs use it as hour as well however.

    Couldn't find a better source to show what is considered true 'Bosniak language'.

    #354811

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes Sahat or Sat is hour. Čas you probably use as 'moment', the same way Croats do, Serbs use it as hour as well however.

    You're probably right. I don't know if you Serbs and Croats use it the same way, but when I use Čas it's something like Time or Class, e.g. Čas biologija (Biology class).

    #354812

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Though, we find it funny when Serbs from Serbia take out the H in some words, e.g. Odža instead of Hodža ;D

    Yes that is the vulgar part I was talking about, that the colloquial language got raised to the literary standard. In a conversation you usually lose some letters, like kao > ko', stol > sto', sokol > soko', historija > 'istorija. Now it is nothing wrong when used in a conversation, but using it as a literary standard is a desecration of the language in my eyes. Unfortunately the linguistic 'experts' see it otherwise, or do not see it at all. Croats are far more stricter concerning that.

    Quote:
    You're probably right. I don't know if you Serbs and Croats use it the same way, but when I use Čas it's something like Time or Class, e.g. Čas biologija (Biology class).

    That as well.

    #354813

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes that is the vulgar part I was talking about, that the colloquial language got raised to the literary standard. In a conversation you usually lose some letters, like kao > ko', stol > sto', sokol > soko', historija > 'istorija. Now it is nothing wrong when used in a conversation, but using it as a literary standard is a desecration of the language in my eyes. Unfortunately the linguistic 'experts' see it otherwise, or do not see it at all. Croats are far more stricter concerning that.

    Well, I've mostly noticed it in Serbia. Montenegro and Bosnia seem to do this less, though I'm not sure how much less.

    #354814

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes that is the vulgar part I was talking about, that the colloquial language got raised to the literary standard. In a conversation you usually lose some letters, like kao > ko', stol > sto', sokol > soko', historija > 'istorija. Now it is nothing wrong when used in a conversation, but using it as a literary standard is a desecration of the language in my eyes. Unfortunately the linguistic 'experts' see it otherwise, or do not see it at all. Croats are far more stricter concerning that.

    That as well.

    First of all историја/хисторија does not have anything with Turkisms and so called vulgarisation. It is Greek word and pronoucniation changed during the time. Before times Alexander the Great ἱστορία sounded like historia. After that time lot of phonetical changes occured. The aspirate breathing (aspiration), which was already lost in the Ionic varieties of Asia Minor and the Aeolic of Lesbos, stopped being pronounced and written in popular texts. In thtat way ἱστορία  became to sound like istoria. Serbs (and other Orthodox Slavs) borrowed it from Byzantine Greek (Old Church Slavonic: їсторїꙗ, Serbian/Macedonian: историја, Russian/Bulgarian история, Ukrainian iсторія).
    Concerning other changes, it is not desacration language, it is phonetical change which occured. Pointless to preserve sometnig which nobody was pronouncing.

    Quote:
    Well, I've mostly noticed it in Serbia. Montenegro and Bosnia seem to do this less, though I'm not sure how much less.

    Svevlad what are you refering?
    I never heard somebody in Montenegro or Bosna to say sokol, stol (except Croats). Also some Bosniaks tend say istorija some historija (before war all of them were using Serbian terminology in scholary works).
    Concerning сат and час, сат could be hour and watch and clock, час is hour or moment or class (period of time, lecture in school).

    #354815

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    First of all историја/хисторија does not have anything with Turkisms and so called vulgarisation. It is Greek word and pronoucniation changed during the time. Before times Alexander the Great ἱστορία sounded like historia. After that time lot of phonetical changes occured. The aspirate breathing (aspiration), which was already lost in the Ionic varieties of Asia Minor and the Aeolic of Lesbos, stopped being pronounced and written in popular texts. In thtat way ἱστορία  became to sound like istoria. Serbs (and other Orthodox Slavs) borrowed it from Byzantine Greek (Old Church Slavonic: їсторїꙗ, Serbian/Macedonian: историја, Russian/Bulgarian история, Ukrainian iсторія).
    Concerning other changes, it is not desacration language, it is phonetical change which occured. Pointless to preserve sometnig which nobody was pronouncing.

    It is true istorija, was a false example. I wouldn't agree that it is pointless to preserve something which nobody was pronouncing, since slang or colloquialism isn't, shouldn't be literary language. I will take standard German as an example, it is a solely fabricated language, which wasn't spoken by any of the German ethnicities (some however shared more traits than others), if they have had used Bavarian German (language of Bavaria, Switzerland and Austria) on the method we are using, I believe a large portion of their literary heritage, especially concerning their german vocabulary, would vanish with time.

    Exactly that vanishing of the linguistical heritage we are seeing in Serbia today as well as from the time of Vuk Stef. Karadzic, where almost every Serbian word considered archaic (or out of use) is being replaced with a more efficient, or sometimes just 'cooler' foreign one. I am strongly opposed to that, but stand in a grave minority.

    The Serbian language will vanish with time, thanks to uneducated masses. One would have to go to Zagreb to learn Serbian, just as it was predicted 150 years ago.

    #354816

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I never heard somebody in Montenegro or Bosna to say sokol, stol (except Croats).

    That's odd ??? I know a Bosnian Serb family from Drvar, they say Stol, and I think I heard one of them say Sokol as well.

    Quote:
    Also some Bosniaks tend say istorija some historija

    I already know this. Half my family says Istorija, the other half says Historija. I've also noticed that a minority of Bosniaks also use Povijest.

    #354817

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    That's odd ??? I know a Bosnian Serb family from Drvar, they say Stol, and I think I heard one of them say Sokol as well.

    I already know this. Half my family says Istorija, the other half says Historija. I've also noticed that a minority of Bosniaks also use Povijest.

    Istorija and povijest, are two different things. Serbs use povijest as well, (the ones knowing when and how to use it though).

    Istorija – as in history, is the general sum of knowledge of passed events.
    Povijest – is a documentation of a specific event that has passed, as in Povijest of 'something'.

    Those two terms are very similar and hard to differ in common understanding, so that the word povijest, with time vanished in the Serbian language (it could also be because of foreign influence upon the language).

    #354818

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is true istorija, was a false example. I wouldn't agree that it is pointless to preserve something which nobody was pronouncing, since slang or colloquialism isn't, shouldn't be literary language. I will take standard German as an example, it is a solely fabricated language, which wasn't spoken by any of the German ethnicities (some however shared more traits than others), if they have had used Bavarian German (language of Bavaria, Switzerland and Austria) on the method we are using, I believe a large portion of their literary heritage, especially concerning their german vocabulary, would vanish with time.

    Exactly that vanishing of the linguistical heritage we are seeing in Serbia today as well as from the time of Vuk Stef. Karadzic, where almost every Serbian word considered archaic (or out of use) is being replaced with a more efficient, or sometimes just 'cooler' foreign one. I am strongly opposed to that, but stand in a grave minority.

    The Serbian language will vanish with time, thanks to uneducated masses. One would have to go to Zagreb to learn Serbian, just as it was predicted 150 years ago.

    This is absolutley wrong standpont.
    1) Hochdeutsch is based on Saxonian dialect. From XV century it is language of German literature, but nontheless it is based onvernaculare in Meisen. On other hand, before Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, literary language of Serbs was not Serbian, but Old Church Slavonic and Chruch Slavonic later. This is akin to medieval Europe, literary language was Latin, not Spanish French, German. Slavjanoserpski is just suržik, not language on its own, mixture of vernaculare Serbian, Church Slavonic and Russian

    Весьма бы мені пріскорбно было, ако бі я кадгод чуо, что ты, мой сыне, упао у пянство, роскошь, безчініе, і непотребное жітіе.

    Nevertheless, tradition of use vernacular in  literature did not start with Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, century and half before him Gavril Stefanović Venclović wrote about 10 000 pages in vernaculare.

    2) Russian words and Croatian neologisms (not intented as offense, it is ligusitc term) are not archaic Serbian words. Sometimes it is more efficient ot accept foreign word, фудбал is both game and  ball for that game. Интернацинални could be used for deriving more words than међународни.

    3) If somebody go in Zagreb in order to learn proper Serbian, he is absolutley wrong. In Zagreb they could not diferentiate č and ć, they do not differ ije and je (being ekavians), ther isn no 4 accents, but 3, there is one phonema more. If somebody wants to speak Serbian properly, he should go in Universities of Belgrade and Banja Luka (dont know about other Universities), majority of professors on that two speak proper Serbian.

    Quote:
    That's odd ??? I know a Bosnian Serb family from Drvar, they say Stol, and I think I heard one of them say Sokol as well.

    Maybe someone went in school in Croatia or something. Serbs in Drvar speak сто and soko. Their dialect is same as mine (East Herzegvonian)

    #354819

    Anonymous

    Повијест and историја (povijest and historija in Croatian standard), is not the same thing

    Dictionary of Matica Srpska

    повест, ијек. повијест, ж 1. а. целокупан ток развитка природе, људског друштва,
    историја. Наз. 6. наука која истражује и проучава прошлост; наука о развитку људског друштва, о развитку појединих области
    природе и културе, историја, —  2. скуп чињеница или догађаја повезаних с ким или чим. 3. прича, приповетка.

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