Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 127 total)
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  • #347177

    Anonymous

    As a neutral observer I noticed every little there is some feud about Macedonians, mostly due to fact their national identity is recent. Bulgarians claiming they are Bulgarians, Macedonians claiming they are unconnected (heavy words on both sides so I wouldn’t get into that)…

    Not getting into detail of those common quarrels about origin I would really like to know whats sincere opinion of common Bulgarian people of Macedonians and how do they perceive them?

    #383189

    Anonymous

    I am not a Bulgarian. In my opinion a fair number of south-western
    Bulgarians should get Macedonian identity. That will help them to
    reconcile. :)

    #383182

    Anonymous

    Interesting topic.  A a slavic greek, probably closest to slavic macedonians, I feel a bit removed from bulgarians and their news/views, never really had much to do with them in the past.  Would be interested to hear what the view is of slavic macedonians and slavic greeks from the bulgarian’s point a view.  

    #383165

    Anonymous

    South-western Bulgarians do have Macedonian identity. Just not FYR-macedonian one. They also are the greatest FYR-Macedonian haters, for understandable reasons. I just have Macedonian fatigue.

    #383166

    Anonymous

    @GLK Aegean Macedonian? A good number of those emigrated to Bulgaria after the Balkan Wars and WWI. The descendants of those that stayed are today’s “Slavophone Greeks”.
    Make Peloponessus Slavic Again! Deport asian Greeks! Build a wall and make Greece pay for it!

    #383167

    Anonymous

    The official name of the state is Republic of Macedonia. Short version is simply Macedonia. The state is recognised by most countries around the world including Slavic countries. FYROM is circulating among certain Greeks and Bulgarians, which is a marginal group. If Ssouth-western Bulgarians have Macedonian identity, then they are just like the rest of Macedonians living in different political states. The reasons for Macedonians living in Bulgaria disliking Macedonians of Macedonia maybe understandable to people of the region, but not to outsiders. It’s almost like being a self-hater. It’s like Belarusians hating Belarusians living in eastern Poland or Lithuania which would be rather odd.

    #383171

    Anonymous

    Bulgarians don’t use FYROM, just Macedonia, or Vardarska Macedonia when they want to be precise. I use FYROM to differentiate between the NWO statelet and the rest of Macedonia and to piss off FYRoms.D

    #383180

    Anonymous

    What the heck is a Slavic Greek? That’s some kind of an oxymoron, surely. Unless you mean a Slav with a Greek nationality (or Slavophone Greeks, as Greece calls them).

    As per the topic – depends if we go by stereotypes. The view of the stereotypical Bulgarian towards the stereotypical Macedonian would, I guess, be mostly of ridicule (because the stereotypical Macedonian is also a Macedonist and the latter are indeed ridiculous (but worry not, Macedonians – we like to ridicule all Bulgarians equally, not just you :tongue: )). Of course, there’s also that lingering feeling of betrayal, for having fallen to the rabid anti-Bulgarian propaganda that is Macedonism, so some Bulgarians, especially the more nationalistic ones, would also feel some disdain (and/or pity), the way you would feel about a janissary. I think that’s basically it, if we go by stereotypes. And considering stereotypes are especially strong in the Internet, it’s no surprise that flame wars are a somewhat common thing. In real life things are a bit better though – I know enough ordinary Bulgarians who are friends with ordinary Macedonians. Heck, I’ve been a friend with a Macedonist Macedonian, so it’s certainly doable (we’re both relatively intelligent and civilised persons though, so we preferred to just joke about the issue and not press it much).
    And my personal opinion is that modern Macedonians are not Bulgarians (big surprise! ba-dum-tss). Of course, both as a Bulgarian and as someone interested in objective history, I believe the majority of their ancestors were Bulgarian a century ago. But the vast majority of the modern Vardar Macedonians don’t consider themselves Bulgarian today and therefore they aren’t. Self-identity is not a genetic trait, after all – otherwise, South Slavs wouldn’t even exist. 😉 

    Also, @Sviatogor – I think you’re confusing the issue. The term “Macedonian” has several different meanings. For most Slavs in Vardar Macedonia it’s an ethnic identity. For the non-Slavs in the Republic of Macedonia (I prefer that name, considering we were the first to recognise them with it, after all), it’s a nationality (similarly, our Turks and Gypsies are also Bulgarian citizens and when the latter go to wreck and plunder the Western countries, they always say “we’re Bulgarians”). And, lastly, the oldest meaning is the regional one – historically this was ethnically inclusive (i.e. the local Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs etc were all Macedonians by region), although for Bulgaria (and I think Greece, in the case of Aegean Macedonia) it’s also an ethnographic regionality. F.e. by regionality I am 3/4 Shop and 1/4 Macedonian, the latter on my father’s side. Of course, technically, my father is 1/2 Macedonian himself, although he considers himself as Macedonian only (family issues), but only on a regional/ethnographic basis. As an ethnicity he consider himself fully Bulgarian and like many other Bulgarian Macedonians (as aaaaa said) his views on the “ethnic Macedonians”, the Macedonists in particular, are understandably negative. It probably has something to do with his family not being very happy to be forced to “convert” to Macedonism in the 40s-50s (by our own Bulgarian government no less (the commies, of course (and, needless to say, his view on the commies is far worse))) and thus those who still support that doctrine, despite the freedom of information they now have, are seen as… misguided, at best. Likewise, when I was younger, a teenager and quite more nationalistic and enthusiastic than today, I also thought that the Macedonians in the Rep of Macedonia simply lack information and if I would show it to them, with the liberating power of the internet, they’d come to their senses and accept their roots. Of course, I soon found out that Macedonians (both ethnic and regional) are at least as hard-headed as Shops are famed to be (so you can imagine what kind of a mix I am myself). I should’ve seen it coming though – I’ve argued before both with my father and with his cousin from the Macedonian line and I know from experience that you can’t argue with such people, at least not logically (though at least they didn’t shower me with curses, which is the usual response of the keyboard warriors all over the Balkans). In any case, all this is further confused by the aforementioned fact that the region of Macedonia also includes Aegean Macedonia and, respectively, that the Greeks have a regional Macedonian identity as well (although most Greeks in Macedonia are Pontic refugees, IIRC). Add to that the truly stupid argument about the name that the Rep. of Macedonia and Greece are having (I’m on the side of the (Vardar) Macedonians on this one) and you get the recipe for a wonderful Balkan mish-mash.

    #383159

    Anonymous

    @NikeBG

    I don’t think I confuse the issue. The name of the country is Republic of Macedonia. In short, it’s also known as Macedonia. The republic of Macedonia is recognised by most countries of the world.
    The ethnic identity of Slavic people living in Republic of Macedonia and other countries of the world is Macedonian.
    Macedonian can also be a national of Republic of Macedonia of any ethnicity – Gypsy, Albanian, Greek, Serb, Bulgarian.

    It does not matter how ancestors of modern people identified themselves in the past. Many had several ethnic identities in the last 1,000 years. Germans don’t insist for Austrians to be labeled as Germans. As far as I know Austrians identified themselves Germans in the past.  Certain Czechs were known as Bohemians in the past. Bohemian is a Celtic rather than Slavic term. Bulgarians bear ethnic term applied to Turkic speaking Bulgars originally.  I can find many such examples. What matters is how people of Macedonian identify themselves today. If they consider themselves Macedonians , then they are Macedonians even if their ancestors were known by other ethnic names in the past.

    #383153

    Anonymous

    Your confusion is that there isn’t only an ethnic and national meaning, but a regional one as well (hence why there are even Greek Macedonians, too). Otherwise, what you said is not much different from what I’ve already said.

    Btw, the Austrians don’t deny speaking German and being very closely related to the Germans, to the point that an Austrian became the most famous German in history (and was elected chancellor there in the 1930s), despite Austria having a long political history, including in direct opposition to “the Prussians”. So I don’t see what’s the point of your examples there, especially the ones about the ancient names used as regional or ethnic names later on – I already expressed my opinion on the silliness of the Greek-Macedonian naming dispute.

    #383155

    Anonymous

    @NikeBG
    I was not talking about regional identities I was talking about ethnonym – ethnic identity.  There is no a confusion about the ethnonym (self-identification ethnic term) Macedonians use. I

    Austrian is a modern day ethnonym Austraians use.  They don’t call themselves German irrespective of their history and achievements. Mecedonian is a modern day ethnonym Macedonians use. Both ethnonyms are recognised around the worldd. The examples I provided are valid. If you are confused  about what ethonym can mean, then check the dictionary.

    #383110

    Anonymous

    They should change their name to “Republic of Treasonous Scum” to adequately reflect their ethnic character.
    Also, goes without saying that if Russia occupies Belorus, partitions it and tells one part of it that they’re actually ancient Balts and the reason they suck is because those Belorussian dudes oppressed them for 1000 years – I’ll be all for it.

    #383128

    Anonymous

    Interesting discussion. Let me comment as an ethnic Macedonian with ancestry from the Republic of Macedonia. From a Macedonian perspective we see Bulgaria as a state that wants to divide Macedonia with Albania or take Macedonia completely. I guess this comes from historical experience of that happening in WW1 and WW2. We see Bulgarian policy towards Macedonia unchanged since the 19th century ie., Macedonians are really Bulgarians and therefore Macedonia belongs to Bulgaria. The anti-Bulgarian feelings amongst ethnic Macedonians stems from the fact that this policy remains unchanged today  – Bulgaria recognizes the state, but not the ethnicity of the people. Macedonians want to live in their own state, and so understandably feel nervous about such policies of Bulgaria, given historical experience. From this stems discussions about the differences between Bulgarians and Macedonians and we feel compelled to show these differences, with some extreme arguments amongst others. If Bulgaria and Bulgarians accepted the reality of the Macedonian ethnicity and language for example, there would not be such animosity towards the Bulgarians, from the Macedonians. Macedonians for example look favourably towards the Serbs because they do exactly that and therefore respect our wishes and rights to self identity. Perhaps Bulgaria could take a leaf out of Serbia’s book, especially since Serbia recognized us as South Serbs at one point, for the same reasons Bulgaria recognizes us as Bulgarians….

    #383129

    Anonymous

    @NikeBG @aaaaa 
    I used to identify myself as a Macedonian, more from a regional perspective as I knew my history well enough, just like my great grandparents, grandparents before me, as our ancestry came from Northern Greece / Aegean Macedonia. I found that many of the relatives that stayed in Greece became Greek, and lost their Macedonian identity.  Further to complicate the matter, we were all baptised Greek Orthodox, and we only had Greek schools/churches in our region of Aegean Macedonia.  There are many slavs that stayed in Greece and slowly turned into Greeks, cultural changes can take generations. I never went to Greek school as I was not born there. I am now a Greek citizen to obtain an EU Passport, and although I don’t speak Greek well, I can speak my slavic dialect well enough. I found it too controversial using the Macedonian name, as I had many Greek friends, which would take offence to the use of the name.  So now I just call myself Greek, and if anyone asks me why I don’t speak greek well, then i say I’m slavic.  Slavophone Greek, Slavic Greek, all same thing really.  So yes, I am a Greek citizen and Slav.

    Can someone please explain to me what happened in Pirin Bulgaria when they started to recognise the population as Macedonian?  Did the people of Pirin actually want this?  And what was the intention of doing this – to eventually merge them with Vardar Macedonia to make a larger Macedonian state?  I could not envisage Bulgaria giving away territory to create a larger Macedonian (slavic) state, I just don’t believe that would ever happen.

    Can someone also please explain to me, is the dialect of Pirin Bulgaria the same as Vardar Macedonia even to this date?

    Only recently I’ve started listening to Bulgarian pop and folk music, and its funny some artists I can understand completely, whilst others use some words which are totally foreign to me.  Whereas, if I listen to music from Vardar Macedonia, I understand it completely.

    #383130

    Anonymous

    @GLK the eastern dialects in the Republic of Macedonia are the same, their literary language is different (It was meant to be different).
    @Hatson I know everybody likes to be king of his own castle but you can only divide a nation so much before it disappears.

    >divide Macedonia with Albania or take Macedonia completely
    Nah, man. Everything up to and including Durazzo. Tri moreta, remember?

    The hellenization of Macedonia was well underway even during the 18th and 19 century (and macedonization is a mutated by-product of it).
    Even the monk Paisios (who by the way was born in Macedonia) in his Slav-Bulgarian history started thusly:

    “O, stupid degenerate, why are you ashamed to call youself Bulgarian?”

    18th century ladies and gentlemen. Tyvm.

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