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  • #345792

    Anonymous

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    Croatian MiG-21 jets bought from Ukraine are unusable

    Croatia purchased MiG 21 Soviet Era jets, that are in fact unusable, they can’t fly plus they are full of scrappy parts from Ukraine. To make things better, former Croatian Defence Minister Ante Kotromanović said he would kill himself if he would be proven guilty of committing a fraud reported R…

    Read the full story here

    #393926

    Anonymous

    What to expect from excommunist states and its also postcommunist leaders, turncoats. Sadly, but true. And i don`t think that this is the only case.
    We (Croats) shouldn`t have any of these old mules in the sky. My favourite is Gripen.

    #393924

    Anonymous

    Russia is also ex-communist country selling new modern weapons worth billions of dollars. They also service and modernise old planes such as MIG-29 and SU-27. Belarus sold old Soviet weapons to middle eastern countries. Ukraine is a different story. They mismanaged their weapons neglecting their army.  I’ve seen pictures of Ukrainian tanks left out in the open through which trees were growing. Many ships in their  Black sea fleet was covered with rust.  But those signing contract from Croatian side are partly to blame.  The terms of contract should be such that Croatia may  be able to return not operational planes. Croatia probably was lured by super low prices for those planes.

    I am surprised MIG-21 (used in Vietnam war) are still purchased. Why not MIG-29 or SU-27? Both are modernised with modern electronics . In my opinion SU-27 is a work horse.

    #393917

    Anonymous

    Often some countries buy small planes to train new pilots.
    Russia produces excellent trainer jet Yak-130 for this purpose : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-130

    It’s not terribly expensive. Belarus is buying these planes. Not sure what is the purposes of buying MIG-21 other than to save a little bit of money.

    Yak-130

    #417251

    Anonymous

    Regarding Ukraine. Their army was under promidget influence before Majdan, so their situation isn`t so odd. What is odd the reaction of Craotian goverment which act like this is something quite normal.
    @Sviatogor, this is all Croatian blame and shame, not Ukrainian. Ukrops had get great deal. Croatia is NATO and EU state so anything from Midget is for us far fetched. Their is no doubts that Baćuška is produceing good military equipment, but for us that is no, no. We could buy Russian fighters, but what about spare parts, allies etc.

    #417241

    Anonymous

    @KnezIvan

    Buying planes will mean purchasing spare parts and servicing in future. Croatia is not the only NATO country that uses Russian/Soviet planes. Slovakia, Poland, Bulgaria (maybe others?) have Russian/Soviet made planes.  Slovakia and Bulgaria were servicing their planes in Russia. Recently, Bulgaria decided to service their MIG-29 in Poland.

    In choosing planes it comes to know-how and price. Former eastern block countries are familiar with MIG planes.  Russian planes are not the greatest but they are cheaper than American counterparts. Much cheaper. Smaller countries cannot afford American planes and services.  Also, USA don’t sell their planes to any country including NATO members. Definitely not their newest planes.

    #417232

    Anonymous

    I think know-how is major factor in choosing planes. Former eastern block countries had many MIG planes. I am not sure if these countries had SU planes. If they had them then not in large numbers. MIG planes lost competition to SU planes. There have not been major development and releases of new MIGs in the last 25 years. Yet, Croatia chose old MIGs.

    Also USA won’t sell war planes and other military equipment to many countries including NATO countries. Instead, Americans will offer American military bases, so that these countries are completely reliant on USA.

    Russia is attempting similar tactics against Belarus wanting to build air-base in Belarus. Strutegitcally, Russian air-base is not needed in Belarus. Russia already has bases in western and Russia and Kaliningrad. The president of Belarus stated “we don’t Russian air-base. What we need is weapons to train our own  personnel”.

    #417225
    Boris V.
    Boris V.
    Participant
    @dedushka

    @Sviatogor that Yak-130 looks perfect for a small country such as Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Montenegro etc. 

    #417227

    Anonymous

    More information on the deal. Only a couple of day ago I listened to a Polish guy who has business acquaintances from Ukraine working in Poland who are saying it’s impossible to do business in Ukraine due corruption.

    —-

    However, eight months after receiving the refurbished planes Croatia says that of the twelve planes only three remain flight-worthy and five have been pulled out of service altogether.

    Now the Croatian media is revealing that entire deal was shady from the start.

    Firstly the Ukrainians offered a price that was a whooping 40% better than that of their Romanian competitors.

    Next, when examining the five newly-purchased planes the Croats discovered that the serial numbers have been stamped over and do not correspond to the identification numbers of the aircraft that Ukraine originally offered.

    The planes that Croatia actually received are far older, and either correspond to Yemeni MiG-21s that Yemen sent to Ukraine for an overhaul but then refused to accept delivery of on the account of shoddy work, or else planes that have been cobbled together from parts purchased from all over the world.

    Moreover, Croatian media is now reporting that Croatian military police investigators believe the documentation on the overhaul of the seven Croatian MiGs was faked and that no overhaul work has been done on those planes at all.

    In fact, Croats now fear they may not have even received the same seven planes they sent to Ukraine back but different, older planes.

    This is all the more critical for the Croats since the twelve MiG-21s represent the entire supersonic fleet of the Croatian Air Force. Due to the failed overhaul Croatia is now without a flight-worthy fighter force of any kind.

    The most scandalous aspect of the story for the local media is that the Croatian defense ministry kept the true state of affairs of its fighter force under wraps for so long.

    The inescapable conclusion is that this was done because shedding light on the irresponsible conduct of the Ukrainians would have raised questions as to why they were awarded the job in the first place.

    Actually the first allegations that Croatian defense chiefs had made an underhanded deal were made in mid 2014, after a crash of one of the MiG-21s, but went unheard at the time.

    Regardless of the integrity of the Croat officials here, the Ukraine defense industry isn’t exactly making a name for itself here, either.

    Bribing foreign functionaries to win contracts is one thing. But doing such shoddy work afterwards as to leave your partners in crime hanging like this is another. As they say: No honor among thieves.

    #354690

    Anonymous

    Nice writing @Sviatogor . Maybe this whole thing will only fasten decission whatabout with Croatian fighters. 
    I don’t think that any of above mentioned countries bought fighters directly from Russia. After RF agression and Crimea Ancshluss, situation between NATO and RF is very bad, so i don’t think that it would be a wise move to go shopping frenzy in RF. And spare parts would be also hard to get. Only in RF. For me the Russian fighters are more then good, but they are not realistic. So i cheers for Gripen

    #354694

    Anonymous

    @KnezIvan

    MiGs were purchased by former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland from USSR.

    Belarus still has 10 L-39 planes manufactured in Czechoslovakia. These are jet training planes. But spare parts and services were purchased from Russia in the last 25 years.  In all honesty I don’t think there’s much wrong in purchasing weapons from Russia. The entire world is using Russian made weapons even these countries are not Russian allies.

    It comes to whether a country has its own planes or it does not have them at all.

    #364331

    Anonymous

    @Sviatogor you didn’t understood me. Of course there is nothing wrong, quite the contrary, but there is a political issue. NATO state in this current situation buying RF weapon and boosting their economy, and in the same time have emabrgo of RF products under EU umbrella. So as you see it is a very big political issue. 
    On other hand we have big market of second hand military equipment from NATO states. In this aspect Croats did good deals with German howitzers and Kiowa heliocopters. 
    But the fighters problem is very big. In this time we don’t have any fighter to protect our sky. Sad but true. People often think, mah Croatia is small we don’t need them. They are forgeting that we must protect our part of Adriatic sea. Our airspace is for example bigger then Serbian airspace.

    #364328

    Anonymous

    @KnezIvan

    Russian export primarily is made of oil, gas and metals to 80%. The rest are  other manufacturing products. The sale of weapons contribute to Russian economy less than 2% Sale of military equipment makes no difference to the Russian economy. The buyers of Russian military equipment only help Russian companies producing the weapons to stay afloat.

    #364326

    Anonymous

    @Sviatogor  Almost 6 bilions, which isn`t small amount. But nevertheless, this is mainly political issue. If we are going to buy something from RF, NATO states could reconsider their benefits for Croatia. I would like to Suhoj on Croatian sky, but that is impossible.

    #365094

    Anonymous

    $6 billion is nothing to the Russian economy. Russia spends far more in helping foreign states to be in their political sphere. As I stated 80% of Russian export is made of oil, gas and metals. The entire world purchases Russian weapons. These are  Afghanistan, Syria, India,China, South America, Egypt  are equipped with Russian weapons or copies of Russians weapons.

    Croatia is a NATO member just like Poland or Slovakia. But don’t be fooled that USA or UK will sell Croatia weapons or Croatia will be able to afford American planes. At best USA will offer a military base in the Balkans.

    All powerful countries of the world produce their own weapons – Italy, France, UK, Israel, Russia, USA. The rest are purchasing weapons from few countries.

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