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  • #341923

    Anonymous

    …extension of the thread Slovakia prepares a movie about Sts. Constantin and Methodius

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    The other thing I suppose, is that the people won't be called as Sloveni, but Slovania. The difference is, Slovania means common, undefined Slavs and Sloveni means Slovaks till the 15.-16. century (that's why Slovenky, Slovensko, slovenský, slovenčina).

    Whether the Slovaks already existed as a separate nation? How can you be sure?

    Speaking of nations in that time would be a nonsense. Lets say of ethnics. Slovaks had to be separated ethnic, because all of the Slavic ethnics around them identify themselves otherwise. In the north there were Polans (Poles).. were Sloveni between the Tatra mountains, river Morava and Danube Polans? No, they were not, there's no evidence they would indetify with the Polans. In the west there were Czechs (historians say of the Czechs in those times and nobody wonders, that's OK for all). Were those Sloveni Czechs? No they were not, because Czechs had complained about the Sloveni's hegemony over them and with help of Franks they fought against the Sloveni. In the east there was Kievan Rus – different state with different ethnics – not too much evidences about relations with them. In the south there were Carantanians, again another state although with similar language, but linguists are able to determine the borders between Slovak and Slovenian topographic places in the 10. cent. And the last ones South Slavs – again different states with different languages – an example : Proglas is a mix of South Slavic language from around Solun with the language of Sloveni.

    So every ethnic around the Slovaks was individual with own name, but only the Slovaks are those undefined, common Slavs without any name and any characteristics. Come on ;)

    I just found an old Magyar map in internet that shows the region before the arrival of proto-Magyars in 10th century. Unfortunately, I don't know when was the map drawn. Anyhow it confirms that the Slavs were already differentiated at the time of Great Moravian empire (9th-10th century).

    Let's have a look at the ethnics in the map.

    It's name is Magyarország, A honfoglalás korában (Hungary, Ancient occupation of homeland). Magyars have a special, a little bit romantic term to describe the arrival of their ancestors to the so-called Carpathian basin in 10th cent. – a honfoglalás (occupation of homeland). It's a paradox though, how could be homeland occupied by themselves? In any case the region was settled by Slavs and the map doesn't refuse it. But by what Slavs? Let us see ->

    From top left there are Csehek – Czechs, Lengyelek – Poles, Oroszok – Russians.
    Thereinafter there are Bajorok – Bavarians, Karantánok – Slovenians, Avarok – Avars, Nagy Morávia – Great Moravia, Szlávok – Slavs, Avarok pusztája -Avars 'desert', Gepidák – Gepids, Besenyők – Pechenegs.
    Thereinafter there is Friaul – Friuli, Braszláv herczegsége – Principality of Braslav, Szermion – Srem.
    And the last ones are Horvátok – Croatians, Szerbek – Serbians, Bolgárok – Bulgarians.

    [img width=700 height=558]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Kvsur6L38FI/TXc5vUTrZmI/AAAAAAAAAq0/8dsrVRMZq7o/s1600/573.jpg”/>

    My aim is to target at two names in the region – Great Moravia and Szlávok – Slavs.
    Great Moravia is situated to the today's Moravia, western Slovakia and western Hungary. But it may be strange that there are no names of ethnics in the empire, except for Szlávok – Slavs. In any case Magyars perceived today's Moravians and Slovaks as one ethnic group, but different from Czechs and Poles. But who were 'those Slavs', if they weren't Czechs nor Poles, even nor Slovenians? They were Sloveni – those Sloveni from poem Proglas (863-867) and from mouth of Rastislav, the King of Great Moravia: "We Sloveni, the simple folk…" (862). Translation of Sloveni is Slavs, Sclaveni (…) in Latin, Szlávok in Magyar… Term Slavs in the map doesn't represent all Slavic ethnics, but only and explicitly the Sloveni – core inhabitants of Great Moravia. Up to now, when Magyars are not able to speak of Slovaks as a modern nation (because of some mental barriers), they usually use terms Tótok or Szlávok. And that is not abusive as they may think, but they actually approve that Slovaks are those Slavs, their ancestors had found in the Carpathian basin   On topic Slovaks as Sclavs in historical sourcesclick here.

    Later, Sloveni split up into two main nations which are known till now – Slovaks and Moravians (actually, Moravians are not fully recognized as a nation nor nationality in Czech fundamental law, anyhow Slovakia does recognize them in many ways). These two nations are separated by borders for many hundreds of years, but they feel very close to each other. Moravian culture, language (dialects, there's no codified Moravian language) and traditions are closer to Slovaks than to Czechs, moreover in the southern Moravia there is a region called Slovácko (Moravian Slovakia).

    image

    Other Sloveni were assimilated by Magyars and partly Romanians. The remnants of Szlávok may be found in today's name of Croatia's region Slavonia. Therefore I'm not very big fan of theory Slovaks and Slovenians were one tribe before the Magyar's invasion in 10th century. Slovenians are clearly identified as different ethnic group Carantanians even before the invasion in many sources. I'd rather say they were closer in Samo's Empire in 7th cent., but not such close in 9th – 10th cent any more (what's your opinion?).

    In addition, area settled by Szlávok in map is almost identical with linguistic researches of a Slavist Ján Stanislav, who defined linguistic borders between Slovenians and Slovaks, proved Slovak origin of plenty of Hungary's settlements (primarily in the western part) and found Slovak toponyms in today's Transylvania. The borders may look like next map below :

    image

    This was an explanation of the issue – what ethnic names had Slovaks in the Middle age. Actually, the Magyar map interprets it more than well. If there is anything unclear to you, please, go on in the discussion :)

    #358221

    Anonymous

    Up to now, when Magyars are not able to speak of Slovaks as a modern nation (because of some mental barriers)

    :D
    In other maps also, Pannonia is inhabited also with "Pannonian Slavs". It may refer to recorded Slavic tribes in that area, like Vilci, Bodrici, Severani, Timocani etc. In some maps they are identfied as Slovenes – Karantanians (in older historiography, Slovenians consider Great Morava as their state)) or Pannonian Croats.
    Also, term "Sclavi" was popular in international communication, even in XIV century, Serbian tsar Dusan in scripts written by his Roman writers is „Sclavonie Imperator“.

    #358222

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Other Sloveni were assimilated by Magyars and partly Romanians. The remnants of Szlávok may be found in today's name of Croatia's region Slavonia. Therefore I'm not very big fan of theory Slovaks and Slovenians were one tribe before the Magyar's invasion in 10th century. Slovenians are clearly identified as different ethnic group Carantanians even before the invasion in many sources. I'd rather say they were closer in Samo's Empire in 7th cent., but not such close in 9th – 10th cent any more (what's your opinion?).

    Not really, Slavonia i.e. that region was called Pannonian Croatia, only later due to unification of two Croat dutchys under King Tomislav the region had to be renamed and was called officially Slavonia.

    #358223

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    In other maps also, Pannonia is inhabited also with "Pannonian Slavs". It may refer to recorded Slavic tribes in that area, like Vilci, Bodrici, Severani, Timocani etc. In some maps they are identfied as Slovenes – Karantanians (in older historiography, Slovenians consider Great Morava as their state)) or Pannonian Croats.
    Also, term "Sclavi" was popular in international communication, even in XIV century, Serbian tsar Dusan in scripts written by his Roman writers is „Sclavonie Imperator“.

    To my knowledge, Pannonia was Roman province stretching across today's Hungary, Austria and Croatia. Who were original actually inhabitants of this lands? Was there such thing as Pannonions? Were they Illyrians or related to Illyrians?

    Anyway, interesting region. Very old and apparently quite unique looking compared with other parts of Europe.

    #358224

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    To my knowledge, Pannonia was Roman province stretching across today's Hungary, Austria and Croatia. Who were original actually inhabitants of this lands? Was there such thing as Pannonions? Were they Illyrians or related to Illyrians?

    Anyway, interesting region. Very old and apparently quite unique looking compared with other parts of Europe.

    Celtic tribe Segestani. It was a Celtic-Illyrian tribe basically, they started one of the oldest towns in that region, Siscia or today Sisak. That town was also the capital city of Pannonian Croatian Principally.

    Every year there is a festival "Celtic Nights" preformed there
    image  :D

    I have some family in that town.

    It is probably the most fertile land in this part of Central Europe, thus so many wars over it in history…thought originally inhabitants were Illyrians, later Celto-Illyrians after they merged.

    #358225

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    To my knowledge, Pannonia was Roman province stretching across today's Hungary, Austria and Croatia. Who were original actually inhabitants of this lands? Was there such thing as Pannonions? Were they Illyrians or related to Illyrians?
    Anyway, interesting region. Very old and apparently quite unique looking compared with other parts of Europe.

    Pannonians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians#Pannonian_tribes
    Pannonia is Slavic Homeland by early Slavic chronicles and some modern Slavists.

    Quote:
    Every year there is a festival "Celtic Nights" preformed there
    image  :D

    Looks great :D

    #358226

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Celtic tribe Segestani. It was a Celtic-Illyrian tribe basically, they started one of the oldest towns in that region, Siscia or today Sisak. That town was also the capital city of Pannonian Croatian Principally.

    Every year there is a festival "Celtic Nights" preformed there
    image  :D

    I have some family in that town.

    It is probably the most fertile land in this part of Central Europe, thus so many wars over it in history…thought originally inhabitants were Illyrians, later Celto-Illyrians after they merged.

    Interesting that Croats celebrate all elements of their roots, be it Slavic, Germanic or Celtic, as I have seen on this forum (also Sarmatism was practiced in history). Shows good awareness of one's roots and that blod is thicker than water.

    Here in Poland, there are also some Germanic traditions practiced (Sarmatism was also once practiced), but to my knowledge, no Celtic ones (though only Silesia was once Celtic land). Perhaps I make thread about other European traditions practiced by Slavs, would be interesting thread.

    Quote:
    Pannonians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians#Pannonian_tribes
    Pannonia is Slavic Homeland by early Slavic chronicles and some modern Slavists.

    Ah, I thought so about Pannonian tribes being one of Illyrian ones.
    By SLavic homeland, you mean one that some Slavs claim to be root of Slavic peoples (Danubian theory), or just one of them?

    #358227

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Looks great :D

    Yeah, it does thought i have never been on that fest actually, unfortunately of course… there's actually load of such festivals across Croatia but i just don't have the time to catch them all up, and i'd like to take a pic or two…

    Hell, i live 30 mins for Samobor and yet i have never been on our most famous medieval fest held there ffs :D i suck… but once when i come with my beard and my highland bagpipes i'll rock the place with style :D

    Quote:
    Interesting that Croats celebrate all elements of their roots, be it Slavic, Germanic or Celtic, as I have seen on this forum (also Sarmatism was practiced in history). Shows good awareness of one's roots and that blod is thicker than water.

    Here in Poland, there are also some Germanic traditions practiced (Sarmatism was also once practiced), but to my knowledge, no Celtic ones (though only Silesia was once Celtic land). Perhaps I make thread about other European traditions practiced by Slavs, would be interesting thread.

    Yes, interestingly among Slavic countries Sarmatism concept among nobility was mostly upheld and lived by Poles, Croats and Muscovy :)

    "Sarmatism greatly affected the culture, lifestyle and ideology of the Polish nobility. It was unique for its cultural mix of eastern, western and native traditions. Sarmatism considerably influenced the noble cultures of other contemporary states — Moldavia, Transylvania, Habsburg Hungary and Croatia, Wallachia and Muscovy."

    all Croatian uniforms of the time were pure form of Sarmatism, as you can see in the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVhUQa3JbI0#
    Opera is "U boj, u boj"(to battle, to battle) by Nikola Šubić Zrinski, Croatian battlecry that was used in wars against Turks. Anyway, you can see the Sarmatian styled uniforms which Croats used in that time, they look magnificent.

    More Croatian uniforms of that time, as well with obvious Sarmatism:
    image

    [img width=700 height=464]http://www.ofm.hr/zupa_cakovec/wp-content/vukovar/05-misa-za-poginule.jpg”/>

    #358228

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Ah, I thought so about Pannonian tribes being one of Illyrian ones.
    By SLavic homeland, you mean one that some Slavs claim to be root of Slavic peoples (Danubian theory), or just one of them?

    Yes, Danubian theory, Slavs as direct descendants of neolithic cultures of Starcevo, Vinca, Vucedol, than later Illyrians, Thracians… It's all well explained in Nestor's chronicle.
    This old/new theory gain more and more support among scholars, especially in Russia.

    #358229

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes, interestingly among Slavic countries Sarmatism concept among nobility was mostly upheld and lived by Poles, Croats and Muscovy :)

    "Sarmatism greatly affected the culture, lifestyle and ideology of the Polish nobility. It was unique for its cultural mix of eastern, western and native traditions. Sarmatism considerably influenced the noble cultures of other contemporary states — Moldavia, Transylvania, Habsburg Hungary and Croatia, Wallachia and Muscovy."

    This is great to see, that it's still upheld in Croatia! Great culture it was.

    In Poland it is also upheld in film/theatre:

    image

    image

    They also have displays in primary school where they teach it as part of history:

    [img width=700 height=393]http://www.psp.bodzechow.info/n/images/stories/sarmatyzm/sarmatyzm27.jpg”/>

    image

    [img width=700 height=393]http://www.psp.bodzechow.info/n/images/stories/sarmatyzm/sarmatyzm02.jpg”/>

    Other general modern photos of Sarmatism upheld in Poland:

    image

    [img width=700 height=525]http://www.dobroni.pl/foto_galeria/3591-2713.jpg”/>

    image

    Maybe though this should be rather in Sarmatism thread you made.

    Quote:
    Yes, Danubian theory, Slavs as direct descendants of neolithic cultures of Starcevo, Vinca, Vucedol, than later Illyrians, Thracians… It's all well explained in Nestor's chronicle.
    This old/new theory gain more and more support among scholars, especially in Russia.

    So, here are official thoeries:

    Homeland debate

    The location of the Slavic homeland has been the subject of significant debate. The Prague-Penkov-Kolochin complex of cultures of the 6th to 7th centuries CE are generally accepted to reflect the expansion of Slavic-speakers at that time. Serious candidates for the core from which they expanded are cultures within the territories of modern Belarus, Poland, and Ukraine. The proposed frameworks are:

    Historical distribution of the Slavic languages. The larger shaded area is the Prague-Penkov-Kolochin complex of cultures of the 6th to 7th centuries, likely corresponding to the spread of Slavic-speaking tribes of the time. The smaller shaded area indicates the core area of Slavic river names (after Mallory & Adams (1997:524ff).

    1.Milograd culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs (or Balto-Slavs) were the bearers of the Milograd culture (7th century BCE to 1st century CE) of northern Ukraine and southern Belarus.

    2.Chernoles culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).

    3.Lusatian culture hypothesis: The pre-Proto-Slavs were present in north-eastern Central Europe since at least the late 2nd millennium BCE, and were the bearers of the Lusatian culture (1300–500 BCE), and later the Przeworsk culture (2nd century BCE to 4th century CE).

    4.Danube basin hypothesis: postulated by Oleg Trubachyov; sustained at present by Florin Curta,[20] also supported by an early Medieval Slavic narrative source – Nestor's Chronicle

    Let us see which will eventually be proved correct with time. ;)

    #358230

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:

    Other Sloveni were assimilated by Magyars and partly Romanians. The remnants of Szlávok may be found in today's name of Croatia's region Slavonia. Therefore I'm not very big fan of theory Slovaks and Slovenians were one tribe before the Magyar's invasion in 10th century. Slovenians are clearly identified as different ethnic group Carantanians even before the invasion in many sources. I'd rather say they were closer in Samo's Empire in 7th cent., but not such close in 9th – 10th cent any more (what's your opinion?).

    Not really, Slavonia i.e. that region was called Pannonian Croatia, only later due to unification of two Croat dutchys under King Tomislav the region had to be renamed and was called officially Slavonia.

    Thank you for info as well as correction. Why had it been renamed to Slavonia? On the basis of what?

    #358231

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:

    Quote:

    Other Sloveni were assimilated by Magyars and partly Romanians. The remnants of Szlávok may be found in today's name of Croatia's region Slavonia. Therefore I'm not very big fan of theory Slovaks and Slovenians were one tribe before the Magyar's invasion in 10th century. Slovenians are clearly identified as different ethnic group Carantanians even before the invasion in many sources. I'd rather say they were closer in Samo's Empire in 7th cent., but not such close in 9th – 10th cent any more (what's your opinion?).

    Not really, Slavonia i.e. that region was called Pannonian Croatia, only later due to unification of two Croat dutchys under King Tomislav the region had to be renamed and was called officially Slavonia.

    Thank you for info as well as correction. Why had it been renamed to Slavonia? On the basis of what?

    It was named Slovinje, it was renamed into Slavonia by Hungarians, probably because difficult pronunciation for them.

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