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  • #345564

    Anonymous

    Dulebes, Doudlebové, Dúdlebi, Dudlebi, etc. It seems they were some kind of Slavic tribe or group that were present among early Czech's, Carantania, Pannonia and Volhynia. Apparently they arey were in Carantania likewise were some Croats. So this is also interesting from point of view of Slavic political system. So bascially among early Slavs it was not uncommon for several other tribes living in certain Slavic "state" or better put political entity. Its indeed fascinating why Dulebes are present in several lands distant from each other. If anyone has more info and knowledge post! :D

    #418917

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Dulebes, Doudlebové, Dúdlebi, Dudlebi, etc. It seems they were some kind of Slavic tribe or group that were present among early Czech's, Carantania, Pannonia and Volhynia. Apparently they arey were in Carantania likewise were some Croats. So this is also interesting from point of view of Slavic political system. So bascially among early Slavs it was not uncommon for several other tribes living in certain Slavic "state" or better put political entity. Its indeed fascinating why Dulebes are present in several lands distant from each other. If anyone has more info and knowledge post! :D

    Hmm, never heard of 'em before. Nevertheless, seem very intresting. Would also like to read more. :D

    #418918

    Anonymous

    Well, there's not much known about them. They're usually considered East Slavic due to the fact they are mentioned as such (and living on the river Bug) in Russian Primary Chronicle. Of course, there is always the possibility there were several Slavic groups that inherited the same ethnonym, as in many other cases.
    The RPC mentions they were enslaved by the "obry" (the Avars; although this part of the chronicle seems heavily influenced by folklore narratives, thus obry can simply mean "giants" in this case).
    Toponyms derived from this tribal name are very wide spread in Slavic world: besides Carinthian Du(d)lieb, there is the valley Duliba in Croatia (somewhere in Velebit), the mount Duliba in Bosnia, the Moravian hydronym Dúdleba and Belarusian Duleba, and there is also the Russian dialectal word duleb/dulep "dumb, slow person; simpleton".
    The form *Dudlěbi with –dl– is the original one (in East and South Slavic this cluster was reduced to l, while in West Slavic it's preserved), and according to Trubačov it might originate from Germanic *dauð(a)laibōz 'heritage of the dead ones, escheat' (the logic is, they lived on some land previously inhabited by Germanic tribes). Not very convincing for an ethnonym, if you ask me, but the alternatives, like "the land of bagpipes", are even more fantastic.

    #418919

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well, there's not much known about them. They're usually considered East Slavic due to the fact they are mentioned as such (and living on the river Bug) in Russian Primary Chronicle. Of course, there is always the possibility there were several Slavic groups that inherited the same ethnonym, as in many other cases.
    The RPC mentions they were enslaved by the "obry" (the Avars; although this part of the chronicle seems heavily influenced by folklore narratives, thus obry can simply mean "giants" in this case).

    What if obry/avars gave away their name to folklore giants somehow? For example here in folklore Attila is leader of the evil dogheads who invade lands. :D

    In anycase there might be some minor truth bout Dulebes and Avars considering Avars had huge sway over Slavs around and near Pannonian basin. Not neccesarly as slaves thow. Might just be federati or somthing. As i read in historic books likewise Karantanians were often their clients or at least under huge influence as well as other Slavs in basin area. Maybe they brought or invited in Dulebes from the east to populate empty lands or something like that, or they were federati, social group, etc. Am just guessing thow. XD But not so imposible considering nomadic tribes in Europe often relied on alliance or subjigation of other non nomadic folk.

    Quote:
    The form *Dudlěbi with –dl– is the original one (in East and South Slavic this cluster was reduced to l, while in West Slavic it's preserved), and according to Trubačov it might originate from Germanic *dauð(a)laibōz 'heritage of the dead ones, escheat' (the logic is, they lived on some land previously inhabited by Germanic tribes). Not very convincing for an ethnonym, if you ask me, but the alternatives, like "the land of bagpipes", are even more fantastic.

    LOL so there is actually no logical meaning behind this name? Maybe land of dudes? ;D

    Quote:
    Hmm, never heard of 'em before. Nevertheless, seem very intresting. Would also like to read more. :D

    Yep its interesting indeed. :D

    #418920

    Anonymous

    Apparently they arey were in Carantania likewise were some Croats.

    Croats settling in Carantania? I doubt it.

    #418921

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    What if obry/avars gave away their name to folklore giants somehow? For example here in folklore Attila is leader of the evil dogheads who invade lands. :D

    Well it is indeed derived from the name of Avars, like Polish olbrzym, Czech obr, Slovak obor, Sorbian hobr and Slovenian ober(obǝr, that is). All meaning giant.  :) And it's a common pattern in Slavic folklore to label the mythological giants with foreign ethnonyms (e.g. in Bulgarian folklore they are called ispolini, židove or latinci – the first is a common Slavic term for "giant" that probably originates from the obscure tribe of the "Spali", defeated by the Goths according to the 6th century historian Jordanes; and the other two don't need translation, I believe  ;D).
    What I meant was that it is unclear what the text of RPC refers to – Avars, mythical giants, or Avars with the traits of mythical giants. The author of the text seems to confuse one and the other:

    The Avars, who attacked Heraclius the Emperor, nearly capturing him, also lived at this time. They made
    war upon the Slavs, and harassed the Dulebians, who were themselves Slavs. They even did
    violence to the Dulebian women. When an Avar made a journey, he did not cause either a horse
    or a steer to be harnessed, but gave command instead that three of four or five women should be
    yoked to his cart and be made to draw him. Even thus they harassed the Dulebians. The Avars
    were large of stature and proud of spirit, and God destroyed them. They all perished, and not one
    Avar survived. There is to this day a proverb in Rus' which runs, “They perished like the Avars.”

    P.S. – Just a little self-correction – in the original text the plural is obri, not obry.

    #418922

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Croats settling in Carantania? I doubt it.

    There was Pagus Crouuati in Carantania. It was a smaller area near Glanegg if i recall corectly. There are also hints that some Croats lived in Czechia and i don't mean Moravian Croats which fled from Turks during invasions but from early Slavic area. Well its nothing suprising historiography thus far can point out that in Carantania there were most likely also Dulebes and even Bulgars and some Avars, etc.

    Quote:
    Well it is indeed derived from the name of Avars, like Polish olbrzym, Czech obr, Slovak obor, Sorbian hobr and Slovenian ober(obǝr, that is). All meaning giant.  :) And it's a common pattern in Slavic folklore to label the mythological giants with foreign ethnonyms (e.g. in Bulgarian folklore they are called ispolini, židove or latinci – the first is a common Slavic term for "giant" that probably originates from the obscure tribe of the "Spali", defeated by the Goths according to the 6th century historian Jordanes; and the other two don't need translation, I believe  ;D).

    Sounds like right i read that in Bela Krajina Uskoki also brought in Grki for giants. ;D

    #418923

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sounds like right i read that in Bela Krajina Uskoki also brought in Grki for giants. ;D

    Yep, exactly; I forgot to say we also have elini for giants in some regions, among the other terms.  ;D

    Btw, it's not a Slavic thing only – Old English and Old Low German ent 'giant', Gothic ant- 'gigantic, enermous' might be derived from the name of the Antes.

    #418924

    Anonymous

    There was Pagus Crouuati in Carantania.

    Slavic?

    There are also hints that some Croats lived in Czechia and i don't mean Moravian Croats which fled from Turks during invasions but from early Slavic area. Well its nothing suprising historiography thus far can point out that in Carantania there were most likely also Dulebes and even Bulgars and some Avars, etc.

    Early Croats in Bohemia? It would be nice if it was true but somehow I doubt Croats went this far west in the original migrations. I can see Dulebes and Avars holding Carantania but not Bulgars or Croats.

    Sounds like right i read that in Bela Krajina Uskoki also brought in Grki for giants. ;D

    Are most of the people in Bela Krajina descended from Uskoci or are the Croats and Serbs there recent immigrants from Yugoslavia days?

    #418925

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Btw, it's not a Slavic thing only – Old English and Old Low German ent 'giant', Gothic ant- 'gigantic, enermous' might be derived from the name of the Antes.

    Slovenes used the word ajdi for giants. Now we siply say velikan – a logical word.

    #418926

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Slavic?

    In era where we have info bout this pagus they most definetly were Slavic the population and locals majors were described Slavic but there were also some Bavarian settlers in this area. Historical data on which villages were under pagus is relatively well detailed. What puzzles me is wether this population was settled from somewhere else (most likely Croatia) in 10th century or they came along with other Slavs in earlier times. Thats becouse i ran acros on some Slovene university article and it gives me strong impresion that they were settled in that era in 10th century along with feudal colonisation efforts altho the article dosen't say that directly but i got this impresion.

    First i need to refind it and search more bout it. When i'll find more content i'll make a thread bout this. :)

    Quote:
    Early Croats in Bohemia? It would be nice if it was true but somehow I doubt Croats went this far west in the original migrations.

    Well populations in older times were more flexible than we think. :D After all Croats moved on several distant locations during Turkish times like Moravia, Burgerland, around Bratislava, etc. But anyhow i am not sure how true it is bout Croats in Bohemia we should find out somehow. There is however a theory that Croat was initally some kind of social class possibly descending from some non-Slavic or Slavic tribe or social group. Who knows this is all shrouded in mystery we can only theorise here sadly.

    Quote:
    I can see Dulebes and Avars holding Carantania but not Bulgars or Croats.

    I dunno what you mean by holding Carantania but i didn't mean that those groups holded Carantania rather that they lived in Carantania. At least thats whats assumed. Altho Avars did have some supremacy over Carantania from time to time. Those Avars that lived in Carantania i were probably some smaller group that stayed even after end of Avar dominance. This is becouse some historians theorise that some might stayed becouse of archeological finds.

    Bout Bulgars this is know via Conversio Bagoariorum et Carantanorum where it is wrriten that some fraction of Bulgars escaped to Carantania becouse of internal conflict among Bulgars. First they fled to Bavarians but were betrayed and many were slaughtered so remaining force fled to Carantania. However large bulck later went to Italy. I believe Dulebes are also mentioned in this book.

    Quote:
    Are most of the people in Bela Krajina descended from Uskoci or are the Croats and Serbs there recent immigrants from Yugoslavia days?

    Well they have mixed ancestry there are three surviving Orthodox villages altho even those now mostly identify with Slovenedom despite the fact there was no population change there. So most Uskoks assimilated into Slovene majority over time especially Catholics i guess. However identity on this land was historically very shifting actually and not very clear either. But yeah there is linguistic evidence that for example some steemed from Čakavian speaking lands and others have influence from other speeches. Since natives adopted some Uskok elements the Grki as giant is used both by Slovenes and Uskoks for example. I would say that majority of those who identify as Croat or Serb in Bela Krajina don't actually have Uskok ancestry ofc. some do naturally but they are in extreme south and in border villages.

    #418927

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Slovenes used the word ajdi for giants. Now we siply say velikan – a logical word.

    It's velikan in standard Bulgarian as well.  :)
    No idea about the etymology of ajdi though.  ???

    #418928

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It's velikan in standard Bulgarian as well.  :)
    No idea about the etymology of ajdi though.  ???

    Oh, aswell? Interesting. Neither have I any idea where this word comes from, but it's use back in the days was quite common. Places still have names that include the word ajd. Like Ajdovski gradec or the pretty known Ajdovska deklica in the Alps
    image
    People even created a legend of how she got trapped in the rocks though I'm not really familiar with it.

    #418929

    Anonymous

    Ajd is believed to steems from Heide or something like that. Ajd has several meanings, giant or pagan and ajda is buckwheat. Slight off topic; in Jauntal which was like +90% Slovene back in the days there is now regional promotion of traditional buckwheat products and there ze Germans say Hadn to buckwheat; http://www.hadn.info/ Actually if i understood correctly buckwheat cultivation is typical of south Carinthia which is historically Slovene while its rare in rest of it.

    #418930

    Anonymous

    Several Croatian historians claim that Croats firstly settled in the area of Caranthania. They were few in numbers and a warrior class (of non-Slavic origin) that organized local Slavic mass and rebelled against Avars during their clash with the Franks in 790 AD. So, they believe that this is the time of Croat invasion in Dalmatia. In my opinion, it would explain a lot of things (vassal relation to the Franks, etc).

    On the topic, there is a place called Duliba in western Bosnia. Authors think of it as a trace of Duljebi, the SLavic tribe.

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