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  • #386999

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    European culture started with the era of migrations, on the ashes of the roman empire, but, contrary to popular belief, there is no continuity between the classical culture and the european culture as it stands today.

    European culture started in Frankish empire. It was built Christianity, Roman legal tradition and extensive use of Greek logic. Carolingian renaissance encouraged the formation of a common European identity, it is something which every historian will tell you.

    Quote:
    Every scientific discovery until now was a proof that this or that teaching of the christians is absolutely wrong and was considered heresy.  ;D

    Heresy is inter-christian label for un-orthodox teaching. Not something scientists (or anyone outside Christianity) could label certain Christian group.

    #387000

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    You could call it that. European Paganism was originally sorcery (belief in generic nameless spirits and in the power to command them) which evolved later into a proper religion. Don't know if you read the Golden Bough but it goes like this – Sorcery > Religion > Science. Some cultures (like Africans) are to this day so backwards they never got out of the sorcery/animism stage, and they still believe trees are inhabitet by spirits.

    European values (i.e. strength, discipline, resilience, honour) are what made our pagan forefathers great. Sadly they were replaced judeo-christian false morality (fear of God, superstition, weakness etc…)

    Btw you have a very good attitude. :) There should me more people like you on this forum (I mean people who value European Paganism more than judeo-christianity)

    Yes. The predecessor of science was always a religion. So the old european sorcerers, wizards, etc. were actually scientists. Not to forget they had to start from scratch. Christian priests are anti-science even now, holding on to a non-european dogma and being proven wrong a million times. So, whoever wants to believe in christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, etc. is fine with me, but I will not let myself be forced to believe that too, no matter how many followers a dogma might have.

    To stay at that stage of superstition is not the attribute of a high culture and, in its final stage, of civilization. So the triumph of science over superstition, in Europe and Europe only, is the ultimate proof of a high culture (we are at the beginning of the civilization era). And Europe is the ONLY high culture standing, being also the first one in history to influence the whole world.

    So, paganism as an ideology can do a lot of good.

    Thanks.

    #387001

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I am talking about the moment christianity became the official religion of the roman empire and all that happened afterwards, including violence against anybody that did not share the christian world outlook, Inquisition, witch hunts, etc.

    Violence against anybody else was happening in Ancient Rome too. Romans like Caesar decidmated entire tribes also they constantly had civil wars. During empire emperors often prosicuted those who didnt aknowladge imperial cult. Such people were killed under acusation of atheism (which didnt have modern meaning). Witch hunts aint any special christian invention either. Some "traditions" often die out and re-apear later. For example;

    In 331 BC, 170 women were executed as witches in the context of an epidemic illness. Livy emphasizes that this was a scale of persecution without precedent in Rome, but smaller-scale witch-hunts. In 184 BC, about 2,000 people were executed for witchcraft (veneficium), and in 182-180 BC another 3,000 executions took place, again triggered by the outbreak of an epidemic. There is no way to verify the figures reported by Roman historiographers, but if they are taken at face value, the scale of the witch-hunts in the Roman Republic in relation to the population of Italy at the time far exceeded anything that took place during the "classical" witch-craze in Early Modern Europe. Persecution of witches continued in the Roman Empire until the late 4th century AD

    Quote:
    Numerically? Don't forget the plague.  ;

    Yes numericaly. :) In dark ages heavy plough and a three field crop rotation evolved which enabeled strong increase i populaton + there was stong highland colonisation organised by nobility and yes plague had devestating effect but not everywhere mostly strong trading areas suffered since plague came from asia via trade but plagues were widespred in Rome too. For example it is estimated that around 20% of Roman population died during Marcus Aureliuss reign thanks to the plague. I am not sure but i think Marcus died of this plague too.

    Quote:
    Politically? We aren't politically free even now, with occupation armies all over Europe (yanks), and politics dictated from outside Europe.

    Yes politicaly. Politicaly as European states controling much of the world. Britain and Russia were among largest empires.

    Quote:
    Technology had the least to do with religion of any sort.

    That is true but universities stem from monastic schools (Scholae monasticae) of monestaries from 6th century. Also we should not forget it is mostly monks who translated arabic translations of ancient greek texts. Even 17th century schoolars, etc were often monks, priests and especialy jesuits. :)

    Oh wait. This is beards thread. 😮 :- I will transfere this somewhere else later. :)

    #387002

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    European culture started in Frankish empire. It was built Christianity, Roman legal tradition and extensive use of Greek logic. Carolingian renaissance encouraged the formation of a common European identity, it is something which every historian will tell you.
    Heresy is inter-christian label for un-orthodox teaching. Not something scientists (or anyone outside Christianity) could label certain Christian group.

    I don't wanna argue, but if you insist…

    Popular is what the masses accept as fact, like, dislike, believe or are against of, etc. Popular is almost never of any value. Same goes for popular science. Not of much value.
    Science does not mean stagnation, for every new day could bring forth a new discovery, sometimes proving the old theories right, sometimes proving them wrong.
    Every historian teaches the popular, i.e. commonly accepted, version of its chosen science. But things evolve and I know that most stuff I learned in school is not that right anymore.

    So… the migrations are the start of the european culture as it stands today. My viewpoint. (I don't wanna tell you that europeans are neanderthals and not the so-called homo "sapiens", but I'll leave it for another occasion.).

    About heresy: want a list of scientists killed or mistreated by christians, on accusations of heresy? I'll just say: and still it turns!  ;D

    #387003

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Violence against anybody else was happening in Ancient Rome too. Romans like Caesar decidmated entire tribes also they constantly had civil wars. During empire emperors often prosicuted those who didnt aknowladge imperial cult. Such people were killed under acusation of atheism (which didnt have modern meaning). Witch hunts aint any special christian invention either. Some "traditions" often die out and re-apear later. For example;

    Yes numericaly. :) In dark ages heavy plough and a three field crop rotation evolved which enabeled strong increase i populaton + there was stong highland colonisation organised by nobility and yes plague had devestating effect but not everywhere mostly strong trading areas suffered since plague came from asia via trade but plagues were widespred in Rome too. For example it is estimated that around 20% of Roman population died during Marcus Aureliuss reign thanks to the plague. I am not sure but i think Marcus died of this plague too.

    Yes politicaly. Politicaly as European states controling much of the world. Britain and Russia were among largest empires.

    That is true but universities stem from monastic schools (Scholae monasticae) of monestaries from 6th century. Also we should not forget it is mostly monks who translated arabic translations of ancient greek texts. Even 17th century schoolars, etc were often monks, priests and especialy jesuits. :)

    Oh wait. This is beards thread. 😮 :- I will transfere this somewhere else later. :)

    True, but everything meaning progress went against christian teachings. Wouldn't you agree?

    Yeah, beards… sound familiar. What was it about again?  ;D

    #387004

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So, paganism as an ideology can do a lot of good.

    Paganism is generic term for entire set of completly unrelated religions all over the wolrd. With exclusion of Hinduism/Brahmanism in certain degree, there is no even coheren teaching about it, that's why all that Religions were defeated by Christianity.

    Quote:
    So the triumph of science over superstition, in Europe and Europe only, is the ultimate proof of a high culture (we are at the beginning of the civilization era). And Europe is the ONLY high culture standing, being also the first one in history to influence the whole world.

    There was no Europe before Christianity. European identity, European culture, European education, European medicine, European technology, all that have origins in Christianity.

    Quote:
    So, whoever wants to believe in christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, etc. is fine with me, but I will not let myself be forced to believe that too, no matter how many followers a dogma might have.

    Concept of freedom of religion is another Christian inovation. Christians, faced with legal requiremnts to recognise emperors as gods, were insisting on it. All earyl christian apologets wrote about it. Nobody is forcing you to believe something which you d not wish.
    I am just reacting on nonsenses about existing European identity, culture etc, before Christianity. You may like it or not, bu it is fact.

    #387005

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Paganism is generic term for entire set of completly unrelated religions all over the wolrd. With exclusion of Hinduism/Brahmanism in certain degree, there is no even coheren teaching about it, that's why all that Religions were defeated by Christianity.
    There was no Europe before Christianity. European identity, European culture, European education, European medicine, European technology, all that have origins in Christianity.

    Concept of freedom of religion is another Christian inovation. Christians, faced with legal requiremnts to recognise emperors as gods, were insisting on it. All earyl christian apologets wrote about it. Nobody is forcing you to believe something which you d not wish.
    I am just reacting on nonsenses about existing European identity, culture etc, before Christianity. You may like it or not, bu it is fact.

    Paganus, the way romans called the village dwellers. That's what I'm talking about. The urbanization is the death of any religion, that is why christianity arose in the late roman empire. It is a complicated subject and maybe we'll go deeper into it some other time.

    Nope. "European identity, European culture, European education, European medicine, European technology" was what christianity fought against from the begining. Even against the old knowledge, pagan knowledge, the village dwellers still practiced (herbal medicine and such), christianity fought against. Those were the witch hunts. LOL

    Christianity is intolerant. Remeber the Inquisition? Just as an example. The word of God is law. No exceptions. No other gods. Period.  ;D That sounds like intolerance to me.
    Not to forget it is a non-european religion.

    It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. There was a Europe before christianity. A much better one.

    #387006

    Anonymous

    Somebody moved the thread. Great. I still like beards…  ;D

    The name sucks though. Should say "Europe before and after Christianity".  ;)

    #387007

    Anonymous
    #387008

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    […]

    Which hunts have their origins in ancient Rome allright, but it seems you are taking everything out of the historical context. People were "backwards" in antiquity that is normal, it was the beginning of civilization as we know it today. Christians were little better than the Romans even 1000 YEARS after them, what with the witch-hunts and supression of science and knowledge. And hell, the only good thing they had regarding science and philosophy comes from pagan Rome and Greece.

    My point, what course would civilization have taken if science hadn't been dampered by Judeo – Christianity? (remember, all major scientific innovations come from when secularity held brief triumphs over Christianity, f. ex. Renaissance and age of Enlightenment)

    There is no Christian identity of Europe. We still celebrate pagan festivals (25 December, birth of "Jesus").
    It's because Jews didn't manage to completely take us over with their false sect.

    Also, a quote from Nietzsche –
    the J**** are the most catastrophic people of world history: by their after-effect they have made mankind so thoroughly false that even today the Christian can feel anti-J**ish without realizing that he himself is the ultimate Jewish consequence

    #387009

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Paganus, the way romans called the village dwellers. That's what I'm talking about.

    It was mockin tearm for villagers arround Rome who were heathens, it is completely unrelated to your statments. It is not even proper name for such people.

    Quote:
    Nope. "European identity, European culture, European education, European medicine, European technology" was what christianity fought against from the begining. Even against the old knowledge, pagan knowledge, the village dwellers still practiced (herbal medicine and such), christianity fought against. Those were the witch hunts. LOL

    Witches instituted European universities, villagers were skilled surgeons, they developed lot of famous beverages, lot of recepies fo medicins etc? LOL to you to.

    A cultural definition of Europe as the lands of Latin Christendom coalesced in the 8th century, signifying the new cultural condominium created through the confluence of Germanic traditions and Christian-Latin culture, defined partly in contrast with Byzantium and Islam, and limited to northern Iberia, the British Isles, France, Christianized western Germany, the Alpine regions and northern and central Italy.

    ^ Norman F. Cantor, The Civilization of the Middle Ages, 1993, ""Culture and Society in the [size=14pt]First Europe[/size]", pp185ff.

    Quote:
    Remeber the Inquisition?

    What do you acctually know about Inquistion? It existed in just one  country and it was directed against crypto-Islam and crypto-Judaism. Not against witches etc.

    #387010

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    True, but everything meaning progress went against christian teachings. Wouldn't you agree?

    Humm depends on how you look. Apparently it didnt since it was monastic schools that started to re-introduce knowledge. You must know West Roman Empire was in terrible situation foregin tribes were constantly invading it much of knowledge was lost and westeren culture evolved into warrior culture.

    On the other hand Orthodox Byzantines newer lost this knowledge. After Arab conquest of many Byzantine provinces  much of this knowledge came into Muslim hands and so via Cordoba west got back much of that knowledge. However Byzantine role shouldnt be underestimated either for example Crusaders traded with them alot. Another important thing that is less known is that much of knowledge was preserved and even developed by Hiberno-Scottish Christians the members of so called Celtic Christianity.

    Many important theologians as Thomas Aquinas held that science is most important in understanding word created by God so there is this duality in history of Christianity like today. Some were/are extreme puritans while some were/are very enlightened as far as these things goe.

    Its just that old folks believes in witches and other things still clinged ontu the people so such misconceptions arose again in time (even today :D) and reapeared. These things are ofc. are not limited to Christianity they goe for ages way back in time. I personaly view medieval in positive light since it has as many minuses and pluses as pagan era did and from historical point of view it gave birth to our nations, it is a birth time of universities, european expansion and just as many brilliant inventions. I view both pagan and christian era equaly bad and good. It was different era different time both had many disgusting things and many brilliant things and i cheerish this regardless.

    #387011

    Anonymous

    The pagan religion, as we know, didn't differ in their pantheon between 'good and evil', that is solely a Christian philosophical invention. An invention that brought us to a civilised society we know now, since it brought to an establishment of an ethic moral code unknown till then [size=8pt](used or misused like any law anywhere)[/size]. In a nutshell, if there is no devil and no hell after I die, something I should be afraid of, like eternal damnation (pagans didn't have that), there is nothing that is preventing me to kill their men, take their horses and rape their women, like it was done since the beginning of time.


      [li]

    Others do not conquer our land, we conquer theirs […] so it shall always be ours
    [size=8pt]- the words of the Slavic warlord Dobreta[/size]
    [/li]


      [li]

    The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.
    [size=8pt]- the words of Genghis Khan[/size]
    [/li]

    I will take the example of Pan (could also be any pagan deity). This is Pan according to the Hellenistic pagan pantheon:

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=300]http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Images/PanDaphnisAltempsInv8571.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=300]http://www.theoi.com/image/K22.2Pan.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=300]http://www.theoi.com/image/S22.3Pan.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    For hellenistic pagans, he wasn't 'good or bad', but a symbol of uncontrolled ego, primordial instinct inherent in all of us. For us modern people he is, what he is, a pedophile, rapist and a goatfu[size=1pt]'[/size]cker. Now of course there are individuals even in our contemporary society that see those natural sides of life and nature as normal (pedophile party of Holland, NAMBLA, zoophile parties etc.), but we see them as sick and pervert (devil incarnated), in the same way the Christian philosophers saw those and other traits in pagans once.

    I am well aware that Slavic paganism brings some sort of romanticism in all of us, in me as well, but reinventing something that the history doomed as a failure, being a proponent of an obsolete school of thought where no ethics other than 'might is right' existed is not helpfull for the societies cause to evolve into something better. Remember that today Slavic Paganism as well as Slavic Christianity (be it based on semitic school of thought) is nothing more than mere tradition for the most of us, after the Age of Enlightment our prime truth-finding-principle shifted from superstitious religion, to fact-based-science and it will stay that way untill we find something better and more efficient.

    [hr]

    Now for the development of religion, I believe that polytheism is a natural sophistication of the animistic view of the world, of the early tribal societies. It was necessary to build a hiearchy of the 'spirits' that are constructing the sphere of existence, namely our reality, therefore the pantheon (the hiearchical order). Not all 'spirits' were of the same importance for us, some of lesser, the other of higher; the SKY was eternal, therefore always the highest in hiearchy, SUN and MOON had their cycles but were always present, RAIN brought welfare, WINTER brought death, THUNDER brought reverence etc.

    By building a hiearchy of 'spirits', one was able to describe the world one was living in. Higher 'spirits' like the one described above, were GODS for they were the lowest common denominators and progenitors of the lesser ones, little gods, demons, spirits etc. The more the society evolved, the more 'spirits' were needed to describe the reality, thus creating GODS of abstractions, love, music, arts, science etc.

    The next logical step in the natural sophistication, was the evolvement of polytheism into monotheism. Namely all the 'spirits' had ONE lowest common denominator, which was eternal and omnipresent, it was often the highest GOD of the pantheon (often the sky), thus his name was the one took as the 'eternal one' or the term for GOD as such describing the essence or lowest denomination of 'spirits', the essence from which they existed from.

    In Semitic religion, when evolving from polytheism to monotheism, it was 'Ilu (Elohim/Allah) the highest GOD of their pantheon that described the 'eternal one'. In Germanic it was the term Gott, in Slavic it was the term Bog. If they have had made the step from polytheism to monotheism themselves, instead of adopting the already evolved Semitic religion through the Roman culture, the term could have been Odin, and Perun respectively.

    If interested in Indo-European proto-religion, read this.

    We are currently in the next step of natural sophistication, namely from mysticism to rationalism. Our understanding of the reality evolved to a degree, where mysticism alone is becoming insufficient when needed to describe our sphere of existence, therefore making it obsolete. The process is not completed yet, but still in progress, and will probably stay in this state forever, that means as long as every last bit of nativism is described by rationalism, therefore making us capable to recreate The Existence by ourselves.

    [hr]

    Now let's go to the first step mentioned, namely animism, and its supposed origin.


      [li]

    Animism in the widest sense, i.e., thinking of objects as animate, and treating them as if they were animate, is near-universal. Jean Piaget applied the term in child psychology in reference to an implicit understanding of the world in a child's mind which assumes that all events are the product of intention or consciousness. Piaget explains this with a cognitive inability to distinguish the external world from one's . Developmental psychology has since established that the distinction of animate vs. inanimate things is an abstraction acquired by learning.

    The justification for attributing life to objects was stated by David Hume in his Natural History of Religion (Section III): "There is a universal tendency among mankind to conceive all beings like themselves, and to transfer to every object those qualities with which they are familiarly acquainted, and of which they are intimately conscious.[/li]

    Why did the human think of objects as animate, assumed that all events are product of his intention or consciousness, and the animal didn't, is the question one should ask oneself.

    #387012

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It was mockin tearm for villagers arround Rome who were heathens, it is completely unrelated to your statments. It is not even proper name for such people.
    Witches instituted European universities, villagers were skilled surgeons, they developed lot of famous beverages, lot of recepies fo medicins etc? LOL to you to.

    ^ Norman F. Cantor, The Civilization of the Middle Ages, 1993, ""Culture and Society in the [size=14pt]First Europe[/size]", pp185ff.
    What do you acctually know about Inquistion? It existed in just one  country and it was directed against crypto-Islam and crypto-Judaism. Not against witches etc.

    I will not argue with an obvious religious extremist. Because, let me tell you, you either are 100% into your chosen religion, i.e. you are an extremist, or you aren't a religious guy, because no religion accepts 99%.  ;D

    #387013

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Also, a quote from Nietzsche –
    the J**** are the most catastrophic people of world history: by their after-effect they have made mankind so thoroughly false that even today the Christian can feel anti-J**ish without realizing that he himself is the ultimate ***ish consequence

    Quote from mentaly ill person. ;D

    Quote:
    There is no Christian identity of Europe. We still celebrate pagan festivals (25 December, birth of "Jesus").
    It's because ***s didn't manage to completely take us over with their false sect.

    Carniolan, I understand you read it somwhere and you think it is uber-cool. But please take some notes:
    On Christmass we are celebrating birth of Jesus Christ, Incarnated Logos and Son of God. In some countries there are certain folk traditions which originated in pre-Christian times, and which are now connected with Christmass, but nevertheless it is Christian holyday. It was not incorporation it is establishing Christian hollyday in order to counter influence of Mithraistic.

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