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  • #343386

    Anonymous

    For a longer period of time i have been thinking about our creation and purpose of everything, i believe we all do that while drunk with a cigarete or being bored in toilet however still i find it both amazing and interesting. I just don't want to give up thinking something about it has a higher meaning and a hidden story behind it. Indo-Europeans, the Aryans, all the sudden have been created with this rich cultures and have spread in numerous directions all the sudden, why is that? Hardly could we know but that shouldn't stop us in researching it.

    Now what is mythology? it was the faith of our Slavic forefathers but also is something that can reveal us our creation. Our forfathers at the begining only had oral transition of the process how everything started. Whats the important thing in reconstructing the Slavic faith is not only because of ourselves knowing what our old ones believed and on what foundations have we lived but in general to complete the Indo-European puzzle. Today other Indo-Europeans myths and religions have mostly been either preserved or reconstructed successfully, thought the Church and Abrahamic faiths has given this one branch of Indo-Europeans the hardest blow, they erased our mythology and with that both our history.

    Now the thing i am interested in general is, if we here at Slavorum over the years could reconstruct our Slavic faith to detail bringing the lore of all Slavic countries here at this forum and combining them in one and extracting the similarities and reconstructing the faith all together we would do a big deal here not only because of cultural aspect but because of the higher purpose of reconstructing the proto-Indo-European faith and it's creation myth to details. In future i'll be posting all of mine theories and parallels between various Indo-European mythologies here at this thread.

    Anyways, what are your opinions on proto-Indo-Europeans, our origins and everything? How do you think it all started? What do these people share and what happened back there thousands of years ago?

    #384200

    Anonymous

    Our existence is what we make of it. Simple as that.

    #384201

    Anonymous

    It's quite possible that ages ago there was some kind of super-civilization whose most important personalities were revered as gods by the generations which came after it had fallen.

    #384202

    Anonymous

    According to many Slovene folktales world was created by God-ly Cock or Heavenly Cock. ;D Ok i know this probably sounds like a joke but it isnt. Here is one variant of creation myth among Slovenes;

    It is said that the Higher power sent heavenly cock who hatched an egg (yeah i know its weird since here cock hatches an egg ;D). From this egg the seven rivers flowed and all men lived happily. The cock stayed on earth and woke up people in the mornings and crowed for dinners, etc. But the people were fed-up of his crowing so they asked God to take him out. So the heavenly cock went back to the heavens. Before cock leaved he said unto them beware of the lake. And so humanity was free however people were not working according to the directives of the cock anymore and they didnt care for the law & order. So came diseases and other troubles. The people wanted heavenly cock back but it was to late for he disappeared for ever.

    The remembered his warning about the lake but they didnt understand what he meant so they made guard around it. Over time people were becoming more and more lazy. They slept all the time and destroyed everything. However someone among them wanted to know why the flow of water is always constant. Others told him it is so because of the cock. All these sluggish people had a quarrel whether there is to little or to much water and the third man said they are both right and that they should all brake down the cocks egg to pieces and to lay out the water to every one as much as he wants. All people agreed with the third thinker. They went to the mountain and with rocks they destroyed the egg and from the egg there came so much water that almost all people drowned.

    During the flood only one man survived. He was guardsman a Carniolan (Kranjec a inhabitant of Kranjska) by birth. He cling on grapevine's. The grapevine was a plant protected by Kurent. Kurent seeing this enlarged grapevine so that guardsman could climb onto clouds where he waited for an end of flood. After nine years the water ran out and the earth dried. In gratitude for this Kurent demanded from Carniolan that he and his descendants all venerate grapevine and drink her wine. ;D

    And such is the tale of Heavenly Cock!
    image

    Oh boy translating this is heavy weight category. :D Anyway i will translate another variant of creation myth next time. ;)

    #384203

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    According to many Slovene folktales world was created by God-ly Cock or Heavenly Cock. ;D Ok i know this probably sounds like a joke but it isnt. Here is one variant of creation myth among Slovenes;

    It is said that the Higher power sent heavenly cock who hatched an egg (yeah i know its weird since here cock hatches an egg ;D). From this egg the seven rivers flowed and all men lived happily. The cock stayed on earth and woke up people in the mornings and crowed for dinners, etc. But the people were fed-up of his crowing so they asked God to take him out. So the heavenly cock went back to the heavens. Before cock leaved he said unto them beware of the lake. And so humanity was free however people were not working according to the directives of the cock anymore and they didnt care for the law & order. So came diseases and other troubles. The people wanted heavenly cock back but it was to late for he disappeared for ever.

    The remembered his warning about the lake but they didnt understand what he meant so they made guard around it. Over time people were becoming more and more lazy. They slept all the time and destroyed everything. However someone among them wanted to know why the flow of water is always constant. Others told him it is so because of the cock. All these sluggish people had a quarrel whether there is to little or to much water and the third man said they are both right and that they should all brake down the cocks egg to pieces and to lay out the water to every one as much as he wants. All people agreed with the third thinker. They went to the mountain and with rocks they destroyed the egg and from the egg there came so much water that almost all people drowned.

    During the flood only one man survived. He was guardsman a Carniolan (Kranjec a inhabitant of Kranjska) by birth. He cling on grapevine's. The grapevine was a plant protected by Kurent. Kurent seeing this enlarged grapevine so that guardsman could climb onto clouds where he waited for an end of flood. After nine years the water ran out and the earth dried. In gratitude for this Kurent demanded from Carniolan that he and his descendants all venerate grapevine and drink her wine. ;D

    And such is the tale of Heavenly Cock!
    image

    Oh boy translating this is heavy weight category. :D Anyway i will translate another variant of creation myth next time. ;)

    This is a great find. All of the Slavic national creation mention an Egg.

    *For example we can find in Norse mythology a same pattern, but it wasn't an Egg but an Cow Auðumbla created by mixing of Fire and Ice. As she licked the ice and thus 4 great rivers of milk started to flow from her starting life. While on other side from Fire and Ice and poisoned waters a Ymir giant has been created. While she was licking ice she melted away and reveled the first Norse Gods (ice melting equals egg cracking).

    *In Greek mythology we have Nyx (called Ryaba in Slavic) and and Egg in beginning. The Nyx has been guarding the Egg and  for ages she sat upon it untill life started to stear out of it…the egg was created by Gaia(Earth Elements) and Uranus (fire, ice Elements) without admixture of Tartarus while on other side from them is a Titan(giant) Cronos created as well but with admixture of Tartarus and it's fould waters.

    *In Hindu mythology, The seed grew into an egg, which the Divine One resided in for a year. He cracked it open and emerged as Brahma. From the egg's remains, he produced Heaven and Earth. Heaven was one half while Earth and its beings were the other half. Brahma himself gave beings the mind and the five senses (Life). On other side we have Purusha which is an equivalent of Greek Titan Cronos or Norse Giant Ymir, he too is killed by the Gods and dismembered into peaces by Gods so they could create earth from it's body parts.

    *In ancient Vedic Mythology. The central myth at the base of Vedic ritual surrounds Indra who, inebriated with Soma, slays the dragon (ahi) Vrtra, freeing the rivers, the cows and Dawn. Vrtra in Vedic mythology represents the corrupted deity as Ymir, Rod, Cronos while Indra represents equivalent of Zeus, Perun, Thor, Jupiter. Indra was created by a cow Aditi same as cow Auðumbla in Nordic creation myth. That's why Cows are sacred in Hindu nations.

    *In Roman accounts while the story of Gods is same as Greek ones however we do have a myth of foundation of Rome and for Romans Rome was the world. It spoke of a female Wolf feeding with milk Romulus and Remus (similar to Norse cow Auðumbla) but probably Roman changed this myth too much to fit their political needs thus why it is different.

    *In Anglo-Saxon literature myth of Beowulf (a firstborn God), and the fight against the Dragon (Titan, Giant etc.)

    Now what we miss in Slavic creation myth besides the "Good" starter of life and of all of us the so called "Egg" and chicken Ryaba we miss the other deity that was created. Among Greeks it was Titan Cronos, in Norse mythology it was Ymir the Giant, in Hindu it was giant Purusha while in oldest of IE myths Aryan Vedas it was Dragon Vrtra. We need to find the giant of Slavic mythology or people folklore that would explain and find this deity. 

    Most Slavs worship god Rod as the creator of life, however i believe it is wrong and that Rod indeed is creator of everything but in a way as Ymir. Rod wasn't a God, but rather a giant that was dismembered by Perun onto pieces thus creating(by gods dismembering him) people, earth, underworld and sky for gods.I believe i am 100% right about Rod.

    Because then if we put it like that all Indo-European creation myths follow the same pattern.

    1) The Void (Ginnungagap[Norse], Brahman[Hindu and Vedic], Chaos[greek], missing Slavic)
    2) Intermixing of Elements (Greek/Roman: Gaia and Uranus, Norse: Muspelheim and Niflheim, Hindu: Váruṇa and Gaiya, missing Slavic)
    3) Creation of two deities corrupted Giant(Ymir, Rod, Cronos, Purusha) and pure life giving deity (Egg, Cow). That's why we have ancient traditions of easter and egg worship among western indo-Europeans i.e. European pagans and cow worship among Indians.
    4) "Giant" giving off-spring to evil Titians/Giants/evil-creation and Pure life giving life to our Gods(Zeus, Thor, Perun, Jupiter, Idra, Beowulf)
    5) The battle of our God the firstborn pure life, against the corrupted life, the Titan. Killing him and dismembering him into pieces our God makes the world earth for us that he will create, underworld as punishment and his place in the sky (sort of heaven). But before the death of Rod (Ymir, Rod, Cronos, Purusha) and it's dismembering into pieces, the offspring was made (Loki, Prometheus, Veles, Vala) a trickster that will become the part of the pantheon with Gods but as well a God/Titan that will try to bring Titans/Giants/Evil-creations back to life and start the cycle again.
    6) Creation of everything by dismembering the Titan represented in ash tree Yggdrasil[Germanic], banyan tree [Hindu], oak tree[Slavic], hazel tree[Celtic], Mount Olympus[Greek]

    Now what we have to find is the Slavic names for "Elements" and for "the Void" :)

    When we have that set we have to understand that some mythologies have preserved some things in original form while some changed but each mythology has something original and when we have it all complete we can then cherry pick the things that repeat.

    #384204

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Now what we have to find is the Slavic names for "Elements" and for "the Void" :)

    Elementi=Sastojci

    The Void=Praznina :)

    #384205

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Elementi=Sastojci

    The Void=Praznina :)

    Konz, you obviously don't understand anything the principles of reconstruction so please spare me ;D

    #384206

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Konz, you obviously don't understand anything the principles of reconstruction so please spare me ;D

    Just giving my two cents :D

    #384207

    Anonymous

    Now out of fun let's put aside my reconstruction of Slavic mythology and let's add some Science fiction into the story.  ;D

    1)We have one successfully being created and one corrupted.
    2)We have cracking of egg, melting of ice.
    3)two creatures coming to cautiousness and a fight between the corrupted (Mutated?) and pure one
    4)one winning, our God(hero?) and starting the human civilization.

    now if we have fun with Aliens and the whole creation myth considering genetics and myths and metaphors what could we understand.
    1) Humans share their DNA with monkeys and such primates thought we have a missing link in evolution chain and sudden culture expansion. If we take the earliest of our Indo-European myths and a bit of Science fictiot could we guess creation of humans was a experiment by some other life forms? Experimenting with mamal monkey DNA and something other to create a "Human" with one experiment turning wrong (the corrupted Titan) and one experiment succeeding (the God, human).
    2) Cracking of Egg(Slavic, Greek, Roman, Celtic) and Ice melting(Hindu, Germanic) creation myth combined together remind so greatly of a criogenic freezing:
    image
    Both the capsule(Egg) and freezing(Ice) and how could have primitive early people descirbe something like that other then Egg and Ice.
    3) Now the Germanic myth mentions cow licking ice and reveling a god. If we understand that mamals have been on earth longer then human kind and if we say it was an alien experiment it could happened that a cow could have been there in nature close to the criogenic freezing capsules left in nature and in the moment when the egg cracked (i.e. capsule opened) and frozen experiment has been in the open cow licked him until he came into sense. Both the successful experiment (first Human, our God) and the mutated failed experiment (Titan) come to their sense and fight each other to life with our God (our first human) winning the battle and killing the mutated one.
    4) if it was an alien experiment it might have been numerous capsules like that and with our Hero killing the mutated one that was the danger for others he becomes a hero and story is formed on that happening and the official start of Human civilization.

    I like Science Fiction but seriously this in my head has sense ;D Take in consideration the missing link in evolution chain and monkey DNA resemblance to humans and our most ancient Vedic Indo-European scriptures and Myths of our beginnings as well an unexplained sudden expulsion of human civilization, as well as megalithic buildings in history (Pyramids in Egypt, Babylon and Mayas) Stonehenge and many others as if they were there with some other purpoise. I should write a book :)

    #384208

    Anonymous

    Sokil and I talked about what made the Aryans what they are today on Skype, and we think the "Garden of Eden" might have been a metaphor for Middle East which looked like Central Africa or parts of California climate wise.

    Surviving pockets of Eden

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/331/93810837.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7645/39209935.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8892/66294187.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8928/83926312.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]

    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/6982/37489954.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7330/23034602.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7573/49060672.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5130/salalah6c.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]

    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3295/80018749.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1315/1074u.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/705/dsc0211bev.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1554/dsc0004vy.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3432/dsc0018uz.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7835/dsc0040tq.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2245/dsc0050bq.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2245/dsc0100iy.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]

    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9360/dsc0107uy.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/489/dsc0027eb.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2585/dsc0119ok.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8350/dsc0039lb.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]

    [tr]
    [td][img height=200]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4410/dsc0116tt.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9804/dsc0130ab.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5298/0616100506118cun4y46l2jz.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=200]http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8963/061610050603r2rbdrurg0g.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    It doesn't take too much imagination to think how our ancestors would have prospered in this land.

    image

    Think about it, there are so many "lost cities" in the Middle East with Iram being the most known one. City of Sana is "officially" over 5K years old and the myth is that it was built on ruins of an older city whose former population was "punished by God" and they ran away.

    #384209

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sokil and I talked about what made the Aryans what they are today on Skype, and we think the "Garden of Eden" might have been a metaphor for Middle East which looked like Central Africa or parts of California climate wise.

    Think about it, there are so many "lost cities" in the Middle East with Iram being the most known one. City of Sana is "officially" over 5K years old and the myth is that it was built on ruins of an older city whose former population was "punished by God" and they ran away.

    No it must have been more north and it has to collide with R1a (and R1b) genes the Aryans left behind.

    image

    [img width=700 height=452]http://littleredroots.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/haplogroup_r1a_y-dna2.png” />

    Most likley the bright-place of Aryan people has begun somewhere between present day Khrakov and Georgia.
    image

    thought we don't know again. Vedic sripts are the most oldest writtein sources of Indo-European religion so we can't say for sure were Aryans moving from Ukraine/South.Russia towards India or from India towards Ukraine/South.Russia.

    Linguistically and genetically most logical birhplace of Aryans would have been the triangle between Ukraine, Russia and Georgia. Somewhere around Blacksea, probably the northern shores of the Black sea. Thought many theories suggest even Anatolia.

    Oldest Indo-European text found: Anatolia
    Oldest Indo-European religion scripts(Aryan Vedas) found in: India
    Biggest R1a density+Indo-european language and culture: first Slavs, second India

    Pictures of southern Russia (north Caucasus):

    image
    [img width=700 height=470]http://somewr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/1329277509.jpg” />
    image
    image
    [img width=700 height=466]http://media.englishrussia.com/ingush/09.jpg” />

    #384210

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    No it must have been more north and it has to collide with R1a (and R1b) genes the Aryans left behind.

    image

    [img width=700 height=452]http://littleredroots.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/haplogroup_r1a_y-dna2.png” />

    Perhaps a mass migration of survivors to more habitable areas in face of some cataclysmic event?

    #384211

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    thought we don't know again. Vedic sripts are the most oldest writtein sources of Indo-European religion so we can't say for sure were Aryans moving from Ukraine/South.Russia towards India or from India towards Ukraine/South.Russia.

    Or they spread from the cradle of civilization in Mesopotamia?

    #384212

    Anonymous

    Hey ill try to find more info on mythology and i will debate alll of your toughts later but for now let me add some info about Garden of Eden. As you can see from the legend i translated it mentiones a lake and how heavenly cock warns about the lake this could fit pretty well with some great natural disaster in area of modern black sea but i dont remember exact location, date and details about it.

    Altho it could be quite possible that  the "Garden of Eden" was in area of modern Iraq. Geologicaly speaking i heard that that area was paradise with many thermal springs. rivers, swamps, etc. parcticaly lots of water which is source of life and this made area ideal for Humans. And historicaly speaking that was a period of time when languages didnt differate alot yet and perhaps they didnt at all which comes to the bird language stories.

    #384213

    Anonymous

    So what do you guys think of relation between Sumerians and Indo-Europeans?

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