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  • #343426

    Anonymous

    I don't know how to introduce this topic… however, I think it is interesting to extrapolate the meaning of words. At the end I was able to discover, thanks to a word, that they can connect us to ancient beliefs. I always wondered why it was said in Polish "Niedźwiedź" for bear (from what I know, there are similar words in other slavic languages). I discovered that its meaning is "honey eater". Was not appointed with the original Indo-European word for bear, since both the Slavs and the Germans were afraid to name it. To respect that led to this animal, they chose a paraphrase, medv – edi.
    The bear was a sacred animal, totemic, whose figure inspired respect and fear. If not mistaken the bear also had healing powers, in fact if I remember correctly his claws were a precious object. So for a variety of reasons, our ancestors decided to adopt a paraphrase to call the bear (the Germans have chosen to take its name from the brown bear).
    This is the first interesting word, connected to the ancient beliefs, which I found. I hope to find others! You in your language you know any?

    #384807

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't know how to introduce this topic… however, I think it is interesting to extrapolate the meaning of words. At the end I was able to discover, thanks to a word, that they can connect us to ancient beliefs. I always wondered why it was said in Polish "Niedźwiedź" for bear (from what I know, there are similar words in other slavic languages). I discovered that its meaning is "honey eater". Was not appointed with the original Indo-European word for bear, since both the Slavs and the Germans were afraid to name it. To respect that led to this animal, they chose a paraphrase, medv – edi.
    The bear was a sacred animal, totemic, whose figure inspired respect and fear. If not mistaken the bear also had healing powers, in fact if I remember correctly his claws were a precious object. So for a variety of reasons, our ancestors decided to adopt a paraphrase to call the bear (the Germans have chosen to take its name from the brown bear).
    This is the first interesting word, connected to the ancient beliefs, which I found. I hope to find others! You in your language you know any?

    Thanks Rod718. Very interesting tread from the linguistic point of view  :)

    The translation of the word 'niedźwiedź' (bear) in Polish will be easier through Russian equivalent 'mied-vied'. It literally means someone who knows everything about honey (med-miód-honey + vied-wiedzieć-to know). Poles simply replaced the letter 'm' with 'n', but Russians preserved it  :)

    Many Slavic words can be translated this way. Try to explain ‘rzeka’ or ‘reka’ (river)  ;)

    #384808

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Thanks Rod718. Very interesting tread from the linguistic point of view  :)

    The translation of the word 'niedźwiedź' (bear) in Polish will be easier through Russian equivalent 'mied-vied'. It literally means someone who knows everything about honey (med-miód-honey + vied-wiedzieć-to know). Poles simply replaced the letter 'm' with 'n', but Russians preserved it  :)

    Froms Russian Wikipedia:

    Общеславянское слово, соответствующее рус. медведь, по происхождению является эвфемизмом, которым в обыденной речи замещалось настоящее табуированное имя животного. Это первоначальное имя не сохранилось в славянских языках; индоевропейское название медведя было *r̥ḱs-os/*r̥ḱt-os, давшее лат. ursus (откуда в романских orso, ours и т. п.), греческое, кельтские, хеттское и санскритское названия, причём оно само, возможно, в праиндоевропейском языке было эвфемизмом. Само слово медведь (от *medu-/medv- 'мёд', ср. медвяный + *ěd- 'есть, принимать пищу') значит «поедающий мёд» (членение *med- + *věd- 'ведающий мёдом' ошибочно)[6]. Запрет на произношение настоящего имени был связан с тем, что медведь являлся священным животным в некоторых славянских культах, а кроме того, был опасен для охотника (ср. табуированные названия змеи в индоевропейских языках). Позднее эвфемистическая замена превратилась в основное название животного. Древний обычай повторился и на новом этапе — даже нынешнее название медведя, изначально являвшееся эвфемизмом, русские (особенно охотники) вновь табуируют и заменяют другими прозвищами-эвфемизмами: косолапый, бурый, потапыч, Михайло, Мишка, хозяин и т. д. В ряде славянских языков это слово дополнительно искажено перестановками и заменами согласных, которые, помимо чисто фонетических, могут иметь эвфемистическую природу: укр. ведмідь, польск. niedźwiedź, также и в чешском в части говоров не medvěd, а nedvěd, ср. фамилию Павла Недведа. Слово заимствовано из славянских языков в венгерский (венг. medve).

    Эвфемистического происхождения и германское название медведя (нем. Bär, англ. bear и т. п.), оно восходит к прагерманскому *beron 'бурый'. Гипотеза о происхождении от этого названия славянского слова берлога считается ошибочной. Утрачено из аналогичных соображений индоевропейское название и в балтийских языках, где первоначальное значение имени этого зверя (латыш. lācis, лит. lokys, из *tlāk, ср. прус. clokis) не вполне ясно, ср. славянское волкодлак (оборотень).

    Well basically, that is more or less same to what Rod said. In Serbian it is медв(ј)ед.

    #384809

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Froms Russian Wikipedia:Well basically, that is more or less same to what Rod said. In Serbian it is медв(ј)ед.

    Also in dialect: med + jed (honey + eat) = međed

    #384810

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Froms Russian Wikipedia:Well basically, that is more or less same to what Rod said. In Serbian it is медв(ј)ед.

    Don't quote me wikipedia bsh and explain me why 'членение *med- + *věd- 'ведающий мёдом' ошибочно'? Use simply your pure reason. Do you have an alternative explanation? If not, ask Russians.

    Maybe in Serbian the last part of the word lost the letter 'v' and the word sounds 'med+jed', but in Polish 'wiedź' means 'wiedzieć' and the same is 'veidat' in Russian. Bear in Slavic pagan beliefs had a status of sacral animal and it was connected with 'vieda' – knowledge. Can you accept the other point of view or not? I only make simple linguistic analysis without any support from wikipedia or any other authorities. I don't need them. Pure reason is enough for me.

    #384811

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Don't quote me wikipedia bsh and explain me why 'членение *med- + *věd- 'ведающий мёдом' ошибочно'? Use simply your pure reason. Do you have an alternative explanation? If not, ask Russians.

    Maybe in Serbian the last part of the word lost the letter 'v' and the word sounds 'med+jed', but in Polish 'wiedź' means 'wiedzieć' and the same is 'veidat' in Russian. Bear in Slavic pagan beliefs had a status of sacral animal and it was connected with 'vieda' – knowledge. Can you accept the other point of view or not? I only make simple linguistic analysis without any support from wikipedia or any other authorities. I don't need them. Pure reason is enough for me.

    But why should bears know everything about honey? I believe it would rather be, 'the one who is able to find or knows honey', since people couldn't bears could, more easily that is.

    In other words I think the etymology is, the animal that finds/eats honey. Medvěd is also the correct form in Serbian.

    – P.S. doesn't Niedz + wiedz, mean Sun + reply.

    #384812

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    But why should bears know everything about honey? I believe it would rather be, 'the one who is able to find or knows honey', since people couldn't bears could, more easily that is.

    In other words I think the etymology is, the animal that finds/eats honey.

    I already explained it that the bear was perceived by pre-christian Slavs as a sacred animal who had knowledge about the honey and its properties (included the ability of finding and eating the honey). Can I explain you what honey meant to Slavs? Hope not.

    #384813

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I already explained it that the bear was perceived by pre-christian Slavs as a sacred animal who had knowledge about the honey and its properties (included the ability of finding and eating the honey). Can I explain you what honey meant to Slavs? Hope not.

    You could explain me, or even better post me, the sources upon which you gained that particular knowledge about the matter, concerning pre-christian Slavs. So I as well can learn something new.

    #384814

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Don't quote me wikipedia bsh and explain me why 'членение *med- + *věd- 'ведающий мёдом' ошибочно'? Use simply your pure reason. Do you have an alternative explanation? If not, ask Russians.

    Maybe in Serbian the last part of the word lost the letter 'v' and the word sounds 'med+jed', but in Polish 'wiedź' means 'wiedzieć' and the same is 'veidat' in Russian. Bear in Slavic pagan beliefs had a status of sacral animal and it was connected with 'vieda' – knowledge. Can you accept the other point of view or not? I only make simple linguistic analysis without any support from wikipedia or any other authorities. I don't need them. Pure reason is enough for me.

    Prelja, etimology is not offten selfevident. There are etymology and folk etymology. Well, this is from most complete Russian etymological dictionary (Max Vasmer's):

    Происходит от праслав. *medvědь (первонач. «поедатель мёда», от мёд и *ěd-), представляющего собой табуистическую замену исчезнувшего и.-е. *r̥kþos (ср.: др.-инд. r̥kṣas, др.-греч. ἄρκτος, лат. ursus). Ср.: церк.-слав. медвѣдь, укр. медві́дь, ведмі́дь, болг. медве́д, сербохорв. мѐдвјед, словенск. médvẹd, чеш. medvěd, nedvěd (n- в результате дистантной ассимиляции и сближения с отрицанием), польск. niedźwiedź, диал. miedźwiedź, в.-луж. mjodwjédź, н.-луж. mjadwjeź, а также др.-инд. madhuvád- «едящий сладкое», лит. mės-ė̃dis «тот, кто ест мясо».

    #384815

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    You could explain me, or even better post me, the sources upon which you gained that particular knowledge about the matter, concerning pre-christian Slavs. So I as well can learn something new.

    Sorry, but my sources are Polish and Russian vocabulary, which means our Slavic heritage. That is lot or a little? To me it is a lot, if you use your own pure reason. I don't need authorities to explain me basic things.

    #384816

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Prelja, etimology is not offten selfevident. There are etymology and folk etymology. Well, this is from most complete Russian etymological dictionary (Max Vasmer's):

    I don't want to repeat myself. I explained it in a post submitted above. I like to use my own brain, guys  :)

    #384817

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sorry, but my sources are Polish and Russian vocabulary, which means our Slavic heritage. That is lot or a little? To me it is a lot, if you use your own pure reason. I don't need authorities to explain me basic things.

    Your own pure reason, is often only pure to you :). I have nothing against own interpretations, but like stated, they are your own. For others to believe, one uses facts which support ones thesis, intuition is not a part of rational discussion.

    #384818

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Your own pure reason, is often only pure to you :). I have nothing against own interpretations, but like stated, they are your own. For others to believe, one uses facts which support ones thesis, intuition is not a part of rational discussion.

    Maybe you are right, but you have your own reason, so use it from time to time. You don't need to depend on my opinion. I only wanted to show you that 'so called' autorithies can easily lead you up, if you believe them unconditionally.

    #384819

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't want to repeat myself. I explained it in a post submitted above. I like to use my own brain, guys  :)

    Происходит от праслав. *medvědь (первонач. «поедатель мёда», от мёд и *ěd-), представляющего собой табуистическую замену исчезнувшего и.-е. *r̥kþos (ср.: др.-инд. r̥kṣas, др.-греч. ἄρκτος, лат. ursus). Ср.: церк.-слав. медвѣдь, укр. медві́дь, ведмі́дь, болг. медве́д, сербохорв. мѐдвјед, словенск. médvẹd, чеш. medvěd, nedvěd (n- в результате дистантной ассимиляции и сближения с отрицанием), польск. niedźwiedź, диал. miedźwiedź, в.-луж. mjodwjédź, н.-луж. mjadwjeź, а также др.-инд. madhuvád- «едящий сладкое», лит. mės-ė̃dis «тот, кто ест мясо».

    Comparing of words derived from common roots is one of most sucessfull methods in linguistic.

    #384820

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Comparing of words derived from common roots is one of most sucessfull methods in linguistic.

    I can agee. I can still see 'vad' in indian vesion which you bolded.

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