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  • #346427

    Anonymous

    ukrainian memorial for the Galician SS:
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    #430534

    Anonymous

    Is this real?? 馃槷 馃槷

    I am sure it is, but probably Karpivna will tell you more. She has the best knowledge of Ukrainian heroes imo.

    #430535

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    image

    Is the man in the suit the acting President of Ukraine?

    #430536

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I am sure it is, but probably Karpivna will tell you more. She has the best knowledge of Ukrainian heroes imo.

    You are sure it is, but being sure is the privilage of people with basic knowledge on subject of Ukraine and their "heroes", not people prejudiced and suspicious.

    70th anniversary of this division took place a year ago, so this photos are not so "present-day". Of course, they are perceived by us as nazis, due to their alliance with Germany, and supposed war crimes. But answer the question, why were Ukrainians allied with Germans? They had Soviets on north, who were a greater danger. Any war crimes are still unproved, but I'm not trying to defend "Galitzien" division, as I'm not trying to attack it.

    What I want to say are two things. First I've mentioned – it was year ago. So it has not happened yesterday, or week ago. I say this because I know some Polish tendency here, to be opposed to Polish-Ukrainian "alliance" (I don't know which word is suits this situation more) and I know that these people may try to tell here now that Ukrainians betrayed Poles by their remembrance of soviet's enemies, whose the only way to stay independent from USSR was to ally with Reich. Betrayed, of course because we supported them and we do still.
    Second thing is that in this whole memorial took part circa 100 people, and pedestrians who witnessed it, were offended.

    So excuse me, but it proves nothing. In Poland we have xenophobes too. They are everywhere. But most of normal civilized people hates them.

    #430537

    Anonymous

    So, whats wrong?

    Stalin has killed more Poles than Ukrainian partisans did, the communist regime in Poland forced by USSR had more negative consequences than the temporary struggle of Ukrainians for their independence. Nobody cares about stalinists marshing in East Ukrainian cities with Stalin's porteits, protecting monuments of Lenin ect. While obviously anti-Polish stalinist insanity is prospering in the streets of East Ukraine, Polish ex-moderator here is openly supporting this "Russian march" (double insanity about that song) and attacking Ukrainian patriots (not even nationalists) from USA. Where is the sense?

    image

    [img width=466 height=700]http://s29.postimg.org/6pf6d7f0n/b162a55de267ca10f8b9036c9bdb915603fcc8bedf36c4f9.jpg” />

    #430538

    Anonymous

    I don't understand why they are celebrating this division as "heroes".

    1) They were small collaborator division created purely for containment of partizans to lessen German military involvement in Western Ukraine and other countries they were sent to so they could focus on war more Eastward. That was their only real purpose. And later as cannon fodder when Germans were running low on manpower from their massive losses on Eastern Front (once off).

    2) They were hardly any sort of military success when used in combat. They were practically annihilated in only one major battle (Brody) that they fought in and survivors were either executed or sent to labour camps, which gives one idea just in how much esteem Germans held them in. Nothing to brag about here.

    3) They had no military honor and were essentially only really brave against unarmed Polish civilians in massacres at Huta Pieniacka, Pidkamin and Palikrowy, so they can be compared with similar criminal SS brigades, like Skenderbeg, Dirlewanger or RONA, that slaughtered many unarmed civilians, yet were militarily useless and almost completely destroyed in one major battle (like RONA and Dirlewanger were almost totally destroyed by poorly armed partizans in Warsaw Uprising, or SS Skenderbeg in one offensive against Albanian commie partizans, this division was almost totally annihilated by Red Army at Brody). No honour in just doing dirty work for the Germans and no honour in murdering unarmed civilians.

    4) I don't understand how they can celebrate people that collaborated with an enemy that had led to:

    – …4.1 million and 1.4 were Ukrainian civilians and military personnel. * NOTE * – that is 5.5 million deaths! OK, not that I give a shit about commie scum Red Army losses, but 4.1 million civilians is more what I am focusing on here.

    – …the destruction of 28 thousand villages and 714 cities and towns. 85 percent of Kiev's city centre was destroyed, as was 70 percent of the city centre of the second-largest city in Ukraine, Kharkiv. Because of this, 19 million people were left homeless after the war.

    – …the destruction or the partial destruction of 16,150 enterprises. 27,910 thousand collective farms, 1,300 machine tractor stations and 872 state farms were destroyed by the Germans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic#postwar

    Or just go ahead and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan, this should be more than enough reason to show that any Ukrainian who collaborated with the Nazis deserved nothing more than to be hanged by his so-called balls.

    I can understand them celebrating UPA, who I personally hate like other proud Poles do, but can appreciate as people fighting for independence of their country from foreign aggression, but come on, these Waffen SS Galicia guys? They were no Totenkopf or Wiking, that I can assure you!

    #430539

    Anonymous

    Shiptaroulis trying to drive a wedge between the Slavs,me thinks.

    Otherwise,I guess everyone has the right to a decent burial.

    #430540

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Shiptaroulis trying to drive a wedge between the Slavs,me thinks.

    Otherwise,I guess everyone has the right to a decent burial.

    Brennus Dux gallorum is Greek actually, if it's him that you thought.

    #430541

    Anonymous

    Ukrainians have a long way to go.

    #430542

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't understand why they are celebrating this division as "heroes".

    Yeah, it could be shoking if majority of Ukrainians would take part in such event, but they didn't. It was a small group.

    But still, it took place in Kiev, so in their homeland – they can do what their want and it's a problem for other Ukrainians who are not in favour with this memorial. It is even less important and popular than LGBT parades in Poland.

    Quote:
    I can understand them celebrating UPA, who I personally hate like other proud Poles do,

    I don't like UPA neither but I am not against Ukrainians who have different point of view on this organization which is obviously positive.

    #430543

    Anonymous

    Wow. Firstly, I do not support the genocide of any people. Period. The killings of Poles, Ukrainians, and other in Western Ukraine during WW2 were without question war crimes. Moreover, anyone who was a member of UPA/OUN was banned from entrance into the USA, though some found a way in. These people are still hunted and prosecuted as war criminals to this day, even if they are 100 years old.  See Michael Karkoc and John Demjanjuk.

    Secondly, on a personal level, no one among my family or my family's friends, either here or still living in Volyn, Ukraine, was or is a member of any ultranational groups. My family is Russian Orthodox and served in the Russian Imperial army or Soviet army. Volyn was not Galicia. It was under  Russian rule from 1795-1921.

    Thirdly, I am patriotic, indeed, for a unified Ukraine. However, I think Ukrainians should chart their own course, whatever that may be. I believe the EU would bring a decent, non-corrupt state, protection of civil rights, a fair free market, and ultimately, a better and a higher standard of living. Is the EU the golden pot at the end of the rainbow? Of course not! There is no utopia. At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for his/her course in life. However, having a democratic, stable government makes achieving one's personal dreams much easier, and fosters economic prosperity leading to a higher standard of living.

    Fourthly, I don't actually support the lame-ass government now installed in Kyiv. I wouldn't vote for them. However, they seem to be the only candidates who have thrown their hats in the political ring. Ukraine needs an Abraham Lincoln. Someone who can unify the country. Sadly, I don't see any wise statesmen on the Ukrainian political horizon. Getting invaded by Russia and losing territory didn't help matters, obviously.

    Fifthly, yes, I did support EuroMaidan and I still support it. Unfortunately, it took violence to oust the corrupt thief Yanuk and get the world's attention. Ukraine has a long way to go, indeed. It's as poor as it was in 1910 in many regions, and that is unconscionable.

    I can say this: the way I live compared to relatives in Ukraine makes it look like I'm a damn oligarch!  This makes me angry. The school in my ancestral village was missing windows and a damn door. My father and other relatives/friends sent funds for repair so the poor children wouldn't have to freeze in the winter. That's how poor Ukraine is.

    So, this is why I say, "Slava Ukraini! Geroyam Slava!" I say it not to remind of the horrors of the past, but to point to a free and prosperous future. 

    #430544

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I believe the EU would bring a decent, non-corrupt state, protection of civil rights, a fair free market, and ultimately, a better and a higher standard of living.

    How can you be so sure if you don't live here :)

    #430545

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    How can you be so sure if you don't live here :)

    How can I be sure? Well,  I don't need to live on the Moon to know it's not made of cheese. ;)

    #430546

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I believe the EU would bring a decent, non-corrupt state, protection of civil rights, a fair free market, and ultimately, a better and a higher standard of living.

    That idealism though…

    #430547

    Anonymous

    Wow. Firstly, I do not support the genocide of any people. Period. The killings of Poles, Ukrainians, and other in Western Ukraine during WW2 were without question war crimes. Moreover, anyone who was a member of UPA/OUN was banned from entrance into the USA, though some found a way in. These people are still hunted and prosecuted as war criminals to this day, even if they are 100 years old.  See Michael Karkoc and John Demjanjuk.

    Yes the Ukrainian nationalists were guilty of crimes and certain factions collaborated with the Nazis but I think its unfair to point the blame of immorality squarely at UPA/OUN. Their enemies were just as ruthless. These guys found allies wherever they could considering that they had a dire threat from all directions be it Polish, Russian , and Germany wanting to make Ukraine into a petty colony.

    Secondly, on a personal level, no one among my family or my family's friends, either here or still living in Volyn, Ukraine, was or is a member of any ultranational groups. My family is Russian Orthodox and served in the Russian Imperial army or Soviet army. Volyn was not Galicia. It was under  Russian rule from 1795-1921.

    How well do you know your family there?

    Thirdly, I am patriotic, indeed, for a unified Ukraine. However, I think Ukrainians should chart their own course, whatever that may be. I believe the EU would bring a decent, non-corrupt state, protection of civil rights, a fair free market, and ultimately, a better and a higher standard of living. Is the EU the golden pot at the end of the rainbow? Of course not! There is no utopia. At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for his/her course in life. However, having a democratic, stable government makes achieving one's personal dreams much easier, and fosters economic prosperity leading to a higher standard of living.

    Changing one master for another is not real independence or yearning for freedom. Ukraine deserves its own seat at the table of nations but the unrest was instigated by American and Russian meddling. I am a skeptic and I sympathize with Ukraine but the pro EU fringe received 5 billion of money we Americans were forced to pay our own government. Where in the U.S. constitution does it say Americans must pay taxes for Ukraine? EU isn't all its cut out to be. Ask Greece about economic prosperity.

    Fourthly, I don't actually support the lame-ass government now installed in Kyiv. I wouldn't vote for them. However, they seem to be the only candidates who have thrown their hats in the political ring. Ukraine needs an Abraham Lincoln. Someone who can unify the country. Sadly, I don't see any wise statesmen on the Ukrainian political horizon. Getting invaded by Russia and losing territory didn't help matters, obviously.

    Lincoln started a war that killed half a million Americans. Ukraine needs that? I hope not. After doing research the territory in question is not really Ukrainian ( speaking of Crimea). It was given to Ukraine by the Soviet Union. To be honest it not even really 'Russian'. That land is actually Tatar and I think an independent Crimea from both Ukraine and Russia would be the best solution.

    Fifthly, yes, I did support EuroMaidan and I still support it. Unfortunately, it took violence to oust the corrupt thief Yanuk and get the world's attention. Ukraine has a long way to go, indeed. It's as poor as it was in 1910 in many regions, and that is unconscionable.

    No it took American money and meddling to stage the revolt. Violence wasn't necessary on either side. Violence was wanted by all sides.

    I can say this: the way I live compared to relatives in Ukraine makes it look like I'm a damn oligarch!  This makes me angry. The school in my ancestral village was missing windows and a damn door. My father and other relatives/friends sent funds for repair so the poor children wouldn't have to freeze in the winter. That's how poor Ukraine is.

    So, this is why I say, "Slava Ukraini! Geroyam Slava!" I say it not to remind of the horrors of the past, but to point to a free and prosperous future. 

    Free isn't becoming a colony of EU. Free is being free. Every time Ukraine was forced into some union it usually meant the death of Ukrainians, sometimes by the millions. Sucking up to Russia or EU doesn't honor the memory of the people that died.

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