• This topic has 9 voices and 50 replies.
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 51 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #343430

    Anonymous

    The word "vampir" actually comes from Serbia. Also some of the first documented cases of vampires are from Serbia. Orthodox christianity, the main religion here, is basically a copy of the old pagan serbian (slav) believes. Serbs, being as stubborn as they are, wouldn't convert to christianity that easily, so cunning jews and their  associates, just changed the names of the slavic deities into their saints, but yet kept most of the customs. Nowhere in the world is like that, not even in other orthodox christian countries. We still have "slave", which are like celebrations of some deities (although they bare christian names nowdays, unfortunately) where we sacrifice food and such to them, but some are still called as they were before, like Vidovdan (the day of Svetovid).
    So throughout Serbia, you can still find many of the old pagan practices being performed, and belief in vampires, vukodlaks, karakondzule and such is still very much present here.

    Hope this helps, Slava!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire#Medieval_and_later_European_folklore

    #384907

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Orthodox christianity, the main religion here, is basically a copy of the old pagan serbian (slav) believes.

    All I could say to this is lol. Orthodox Christianity is Orthodox Christianity, popular belief that Saint Elias is Thunder thrower is not basic concept of Serbian Orthodox Church, it is popular belief baised on some elemnts from ancient religion, nothing more.

    Quote:
    celebrations of some deities (although they bare christian names nowdays, unfortunately) where we sacrifice food and such to them, but some are still called as they were before, like Vidovdan (the day of Svetovid).

    Vidovdan is main point of Serbian Christian idenitiy. On Saint Vitus day (15th of June 1389) Orthodox Serbs fought Ottoman Muslim Turks on Kosovo Polje. Battle's outcom was inconclusive tactically, but strategically it was Turkish victory. Nevertheless Serbs continued to celebrate Battle of Kosovo as final affirmation of their Christian identity.

    Quote:
    So throughout Serbia, you can still find many of the old pagan practices being performed, and belief in vampires, vukodlaks, karakondzule and such is still very much present here.

    Those are superstition about mythological beings not old pagan practices. Karakondžula is Vlach's belief futher more not Slavic.

    Quote:
    We still have "slave", which are like celebrations of some deities (although they bare christian names nowdays, unfortunately) where we sacrifice food and such to them, but some are still called as they were before, like Vidovdan (the day of Svetovid).

    And exmaple of such sacrifice would be? Boiled wheat with sugar or honey? It is is used liturgically in all the Eastern Orthodox Churches as an offering of boiled wheat that is blessed liturgically in connection with the Memorial Services in Church for the benefit of one's departed, thereby offering unto God, as it were, a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) for the dead person, and in honor of the Sovereign Lord over life and death. Serbs offer that for souls of their relatives who died in Christian faith. Slavas (literary celebrations) originated from times when Serbs lived in klans (arround adoption of Christianity), each klan got its Church, and all of them together celebrated patron saint of Church and klan, after migrations klans split but their keep Slava.

    #384908

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    It is known that Christianity built its cult on remnants of old pagan belief. Veselin Čajkanović an expert on comparative history of religion published works upon that subject, especially concerning the pre-christian Serbian Slavic pagan belief and its translation into the Serbian Orthodox society.

    A grand aspect is the patron of the clan, the Slava, being translated into a Christian personality. The Slava is surely not a Christian tradition, since it is unknown among other Christians.

    Myth and Religion within Serbs by Veselin Čajkanović (in Serbian)

    P.S. As for superstition, every belief not based on reason, including religion is superstition.

    #384909

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is known that Christianity built its cult on remnants of old pagan belief.

    Christianity built its ritual mainly on Jewish rituals from second Temple, on Sinagogue services and New Testament description of Last Supper. During the times Christian ritual did absorbed some details from Pagan practices but it is wrong to say Christianity is built on pagan practices, since vast majority of aspects have nothing to do with Paganism. And, yes, Christianity could not accept Pagan beliefs because they are absolutley incompatible with Christian doctrine. (I guess there is no need to elaborate on this)

    Quote:
    It is known that Christianity built its cult on remnants of old pagan belief. Veselin Čajkanović an expert on comparative history of religion published works upon that subject, especially concerning the pre-christian Serbian Slavic pagan belief and its translation into the Serbian Orthodox society.

    Veselin Čajkanović was professor of philology and ethnograper not expert on history of religion. Yes he wrote few books about it, even was prfessor on Theological faculty in Belgrade, but nevertheless he was not expert in History of Religion, and hardly that his works about slava bear any scholary significance because he never tried to look on it from Christian perspective.
    BTW I belive you meant transition.

    Quote:
    A grand aspect is the patron of the clan, the Slava, being translated into a Christian personality. The Slava is surely not a Christian tradition, since it is unknown among other Christians.

    Two factual errors.

    1. Slava is surley Christian tradition since it is practicised exclusivelly by Christians (some of them are nominaly, but nevertheless they use that fatc to confirm their nominal adherence to Christianity). There are 4 theories about origin of Slava, two see it as something derived from non-Christian practices, but no matter of origin, Slava is family celebration of patron Saint, in Christian spirit, with Christian aspects, with Christian prayers and chants, with Christian symbols (koljivo, hljeb, vino). Being derived from something is not sam with being that something. Besides that there are theories about pure christian origin of Slava, and they are better founded. 
    2. Slava is present among Macedonians and in border areas of Albania, Bulgaria Romania and Greece, also among some Croats.

    Added:
    Even if we accept theory that Slava is influenced by Pre-Christian  costumes it does not change anything. To counter influence of Heretical movements and other religions Church established holydays on same days with Orthodox essence, Examples: Establishing of Theophany in Response to Gnstics, Establishing Christmas in response to cult of Sol Invictus. Slava have clearly Christian symbolsim so it could only be established by priests to counter Pagan Festivals.

    #384910

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. Veselin Čajkanović was professor of philology and ethnograper not expert on history of religion. Yes he wrote few books about it, even was prfessor on Theological faculty in Belgrade, but nevertheless he was not expert in History of Religion, and hardly that his works about slava bear any scholary significance because he never tried to look on it from Christian perspective.

    2. Slava is surley Christian tradition since it is practicised exclusivelly by Christians (some of them are nominaly, but nevertheless they use that fatc to confirm their nominal adherence to Christianity). There are 4 theories about origin of Slava, two see it as something derived from non-Christian practices, but no matter of origin, Slava is family celebration of patron Saint, in Christian spirit, with Christian aspects, with Christian prayers and chants, with Christian symbols (koljivo, hljeb, vino). Being derived from something is not sam with being that something. Besides that there are theories about pure christian origin of Slava, and they are better founded.

    1. Someone who teaches comparative history of religion on the Faculty of Theology, is an expert on comparative history of religion. Furthermore it bears more scholary value, because he didn't solely see it from a Christian mainstream perspective.

    2. Yes it is Christian, since no pagans exist. Yes it is better founded since no pagans exist. Second, I do not know of any other Christians than Serbs (and maybe some groups bordering them) that celebrate the Slava, therefore I doubt it is of Christian origin, founded in the Semitic culture.

    P.S. I personally believe a lot of Christian practices, are of pagan origin. I would go so far to say all of them, except the ideal of monotheism.

    #384911

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. Someone who teaches comparative history of religion on the Faculty of Theology, is an expert on comparative history of religion. Furthermore it bears more scholary value, because he didn't solely see it from a Christian mainstream perspective.

    He was apointed more because his personal friendship with professors of PBF (OTF).

    Quote:
    2. Yes it is Christian, since no pagans exist. Yes it is better founded since no pagans exist. Second, I do not know of any other Christians than Serbs (and maybe some groups bordering them) that celebrate the Slava, therefore I doubt it is of Christian origin, founded in the Semitic culture.

    Slava is Christian practice with possible pagan influences. You are mistaking possible influneces in genesis of that with substance. What are basic elements of slava: Koljivo (Christian symbol), Candles (Yes I know it is present in lot of faiths, but here their use is in pure Christian sense), Icon of patron saint (Christian), bread and wine (most essential Christian symbols, derived from Jewish costumes) Frankincense (another Christian symbol), before meal all participants pray (Slavarice: "Во Славу и чест Свете Живоначалне Јединосушне  и Нераздјељиве Тројице, Оца и Сина и Светога Духа" "For the Glory and Honour of Holy Lifebegining and Unseparable Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Spirit" real heatan sounding)

    Quote:
    P.S. As for superstition, every belief not based on reason, including religion is superstition.
    Quote:
    P.S. I personally believe a lot of Christian practices, are of pagan origin. I would go so far to say all of them, except the ideal of monotheism.

    We allready went to much in off topic, so I will not comment this two.

    #384912

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. He was apointed more because his personal friendship with professors of PBF (OTF).

    2. Slava is Christian practice with possible pagan influences. You are mistaking possible influneces in genesis of that with substance. What are basic elements of slava: Koljivo (Christian symbol), Candles (Yes I know it is present in lot of faiths, but here their use is in pure Christian sense), Icon of patron saint (Christian), bread and wine (most essential Christian symbols, derived from Jewish costumes) Frankincense (another Christian symbol), before meal all participants pray (Slavarice: "Во Славу и чест Свете Живоначалне Јединосушне  и Нераздјељиве Тројице, Оца и Сина и Светога Духа" "For the Glory and Honour of Holy Lifebegining and Unseparable Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Spirit" real heatan sounding)

    1. Is an ad hominem

    2. Idolatry is prohibited in pure Christianity, in the Hebrew Bible, including as one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:3-4) and in the New Testament (for example 1 John 5:21, most significantly in the Apostolic Decree recorded in Acts 15:19-21), therefore it is unplausible that Slava (idolatry in its almost purest form) is of pure Christian origin.

    #384913

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. Is an ad hominem

    1. is an historical fact, I did not insulted him or them. Veselin Čajkanović fas philologis and ethnographer, most of his works is about it.

    Vergil and his contemporaries (1930) A survey of Roman literature (1932) Florilegium latinum in usum schoiarfum (1940), About Zenobius' collection, Dictionary of peoples belief about plants.

    History of Religion was not main field of his work, he did not have qualifications for it.

    Quote:

    2. Idolatry is prohibited in pure Christianity, in the Hebrew Bible, including as one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:3-4) and in the New Testament (for example 1 John 5:21, most significantly in the Apostolic Decree recorded in Acts 15:19-21), therefore it is unplausible that Slava (idolatry in its almost purest form) is of pure Christian origin.

    Cvetinov, this is funny, я про Ивана, а ты про болвана — I am constantly saying it is celebrating of Christian Siants in Christian Spirit with  elements of Christian symbolism, you are repeating it is celebrating of Pagan gods without any proof.
    I allready showed facts which deny any reference to Pagan gods and wich confirm it's Christian sense. If you are reffering to Christian Cult of Saits and and Icons, you could read about it in next pasus of wikipedia article which you linked here. But I will not be lazy to answer that:
    A saint (from Latin, sanctus) is one who is holy, that is, set apart for God's service. It is a person who has cooperated with God's grace to the extent that his or her holiness is beyond doubt.

    Aside from the more general use of the word saint to refer to all members of the Church, Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ. These saints are popularly glorified (canonized) by the Church, often in the modern era with a formal service to recognize and affirm the veneration of them by the faithful.

    Saints are not thought of as either perfect or infallible, and it is only because of the work of Christ in them that the Church praises these people. It is because we see our Lord's countenance reflected most clearly in their faces that we publicly laud them, ask them to pray for us, and encourage one another to follow their examples.

    The Eastern Orthodox teaching about veneration of icons is that the praise and veneration shown to the icon passes over to the archetype (Christ or Saint), Church interiors are covered with the Icons of saints.

    All of this elements (veneration of Saints and Icons) were accpted before Baptism of Serbs, and both are interpreted in such way not confront Biblical prohibitions, and are deaply rooted in Old Testamen practice of veneration prophets and other just men, also Icons have their justification in Old Testament practices. God instructed Moses to make carved cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-22) Ancient Israelites also used various other images in connection with their worship, , such as embroidered figures of cherubim on the curtain which separated the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle tent (Exodus 26:31).

    As you could see there is no idolatry in Slava.
    Furthermore origin of  Slava be it of pure Christian influence, or is it reaction on Pagan costumes, is not essential here. Main fact is it is Christian in its nature, noth hidden worship of Pagan gods. That is my main point and main objection to dtrepanator's message.

    #384914

    Anonymous

    I transferred all conversation that dosent relate to Vampire thread to this new thread. I hope you folks understand my move. You can safely discuss this issue here.  ;) :D

    #384915

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    This is all true, nonetheless, let's be logical.

    Old Christianity prohibits idolatry. Therefore a cult image or idol, a material object, representing someone else than God (and not even him I believe), to which religious worship is directed, is prohibited.

    Romans, Greeks, Germans, Slavs all were pagans, polytheists, with a vast tradition built upon idolatry, worshipping various deities. By adopting the Old Christianity in the Roman doctrine, therefore designing the contemporary Roman Christianity (finally Catholicism and Orthodoxy), the still very much alive polytheist practices of the majority (even to say all of the people) had to be 'justified' in accordance with the Christian Thought (which prohibited it), with producing the least aversion of the people towards the 'new faith', else one would risk further political instabilities, thus instead of venerating of idols and cult images, which was prohibited, it was found just and right to venerate their counterparts, namely Saints, which were often given pagan traits (thunderer, healer, speaking with animals, etc.) in relation to the former pagan idol they replaced.

    This suited the usual practice the common folk was used to, without great aversion to the new rule, as well as the 'justification' in accordance to the Church, that actually prohibited it.

    Now that is plausible. The text you wrote is true, but it shows the mere measure of 'justification and interpretation' needed for the pagan practice to be in accordance with the Christian Thought. If I put a Christian sticker over a pagan practice, it doesn't make its roots Christian.

    Quote:
    As you could see there is no idolatry in Slava.
    Furthermore origin of  Slava be it of pure Christian influence, or is it reaction on Pagan costumes, is not essential here. Main fact is it is Christian in its nature, noth hidden worship of Pagan gods.

    I heard so often people pray to the Saints for all kinds of things… rain, better harvest, more money, health, luck etc. If that is not idolatry, what is? A mere 'justification' of idolatry, of worshipping (venerating) a Saint as a proxy of Jesus that is a proxy of God, is in the accordance with the Church, but an obviously fabricated idea incompatible with the Christian Thought (that prohibits worship of others than God) to justify idolatry.

    #384916

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Romans, Greeks, Germans, Slavs all were pagans, polytheists, with a vast tradition built upon idolatry, worshipping various deities. By adopting the Old Christianity in the Roman doctrine, therefore designing the contemporary Roman Christianity (finally Catholicism and Orthodoxy), the still very much alive polytheist practices of the majority (even to say all of the people) had to be 'justified' in accordance with the Christian Thought (which prohibited it), with producing the least aversion of the people towards the 'new faith', else one would risk further political instabilities, thus instead of venerating of idols and cult images, which was prohibited, it was found just and right to venerate their counterparts, namely Saints, which were often given pagan traits (thunderer, healer, speaking with animals, etc.) in relation to the former pagan idol they replaced.

    Cveti, my friend you confused popular beliefe of commonf folk with Church teaching. Church do not teach St. Elijas is thunderer, people aplied previous traits ascribed to certain Heaten dieties to him.
    But it is not what Church teach, do not confuse folclor with dogmatics and Church rites.
    Concernign Saints, Church venerated them from begining,  Christians gathered on graves of martyrs from first days. It is not some kind of justification it is well known fact. About healing, man what did Christ was doing all the time? What were doing Saint Peter and Paul, read Bible.

    Quote:
    I heard so often people pray to the Saints for all kinds of things… rain, better harvest, more money, health, luck etc. If that is not idolatry, what is? A mere 'justification' of a Saint as a proxy of Jesus that is a proxy of God, may be in the Churchs accordance with the Christian Thought, but an obviously fabricated idea incompatible with Christology defined in 451 AD, to justify idolatry.

    Cvetinov, seriously do you even know what is Christology? And how veneration of Saints contradicts it. I allready wrote you when it started and how. From start of Christianity. From people who died refusing to deny Christ, fromHis Disciples. In Bible you could read about demand for all Christians to be Saints.

    I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy.

    Leviticus 11, 44
    Sainthood is not some kind of hidden polytheism it is goal for all Christians.
    Concerning miracles:

    23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

    Everything is founded on Bible.

    #384917

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Cveti, my friend you confused popular beliefe of commonf folk with Church teaching. Church do not teach St. Elijas is thunderer, people aplied previous traits ascribed to certain Heaten dieties to him.
    But it is not what Church teach, do not confuse folclor with dogmatics and Church rites.
    Concernign Saints, Church venerated them from begining,  Christians gathered on graves of martyrs from first days. It is not some kind of justification it is well known fact. About healing, man what did Christ was doing all the time? What were doing Saint Peter and Paul, read Bible.

    Cvetinov, seriously do you even know what is Christology? And how veneration of Saints contradicts it. I allready wrote you when it started and how. From start of Christianity. From people who died refusing to deny Christ, fromHis Disciples. In Bible you could read about demand for all Christians to be Saints. Leviticus 11, 44
    Sainthood is not some kind of hidden polytheism it is goal for all Christians.
    Concerning miracles:

    23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
    Everything is founded on Bible.

    I rewrote my text some minutes ago, cause falsely put, please read it again. Although not much, what I stated is that the worship of Saints is not compatible with the main idea, which prohibites worship of others than God. The concept of veneration as those proxies is in my eyes just a nice interpretation that would justify it.

    Yes common belief is not Christianity, and Slava is a common belief. St. Elijah was surely not a Thunderer, but his persona was used as a substitute for a pagan deity of a Thunderer (among Slavs, Perun), thus people applying those pagan traits of the Thunderer to St. Elijah. Therefore people could worship Perun, say they are venerating St. Elijah, and they are happy, the Church is happy.

    Није шија него врат

    #384918

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes common belief is not Christianity, and Slava is a common belief. St. Elijah was surely not a Thunderer, but his persona was used as a substitute for a pagan deity of a Thunderer (among Slavs, Perun), thus people applying those pagan traits of the Thunderer to St. Elijah. Therefore people could worship Perun, say they are venerating St. Elijah, and they are happy, the Church is happy.

    Church does not teach that he is thunderer people described him in folk tales. Folk tales and folk songs are not sources of Christian faith.

    I read it, nevertheless, my answer is same.

    #384919

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Church does not teach that he is thunderer people described him in folk tales. Folk tales and folk songs are not sources of Christian faith.

    I read it, nevertheless, my answer is same.

    And I agree.

    #384920

    Anonymous

    That's nice, but all you did, Dalibor, is point the "facts" you were taught at Bogoslovija faculty or wherever. And their facts are pretty much destorted to say the least. There are many things you said i would dissaprove, but Cvetinov already did it in a manner quite similar that i would have.

    Of course the christians don't teach St. Elijah (Perun) to be thunderer, just like nowdays they don't teach that Jesus really ressurected people and sh*t.  Their paradigm changes and shifts with the consciousness of the people.

    I never said that christianity is a hidden worship of pagan gods, but i did say (just like Cvetinov illustratively pointed it out), it is just a sticker glued onto the pagan beliefs and practices, or should i say plagiarism.

    Vidovdan is supposed to be the longest day in the year, the beginning of summer or summer solstice, which pagans celebrated and named it according to their God, Svetovid. I'm not aware that christians are so fond of astronomy :)

    Yet even if it is true (and it is not, at least for orthodox christianity in Serbia) that christian rites and practices derived from jewish ones… why the hell would i, in Serbia, practice such things? At least, we Serbs, can be proud of our rich history and tradition, which spans from longer than the arrival of christians here. Why should i worship some jew ? nein danke

    Religion is nothing but a political tool, always was and always will be (especially judeo-muslim-christian ones, which needless i say, were very violent in their making). Faith/belief is something else, it is personal matter and should not be conditioned nor restricted by anything or anyone, and religion pretty much does such things, so it could easily control the masses for their own political purposes.

    The main problem in Serbia, and many other nations, is identification of people with religion, where it should be identification with blood. This reached its peak in recent history, during the wars, and it is how they distinguish themselves from surrounding nations of different religions with which we warred. For example, many people support Russia more than Poland or Czech, just because Russians are orthodox christians (not even because of slavic bond), whereas we have more connection with Poles 'cause we originated from those areas.

    Steta sto moramo, da se sporazumevamo na ovom engleskom :)

    Pozdrav braco, Slava!

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 51 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Slavorum

6 User(s) Online Join Server
  • LCaine
  • Drizzt
  • ☭Lil Commie☭
  • Shnickstara89
  • Petko (the pet store)
  • ▽eurus▽