Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 127 total)
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  • #344863

    Anonymous

    I want to clarify from the beginning that this thread is not intended to offend Croats with Kaykavian dialects as mother tongue but I simply want to find out: are the Kaykavian dialects from Croatia much different from Slovenian language? Are they mutually comprehensible? To what degree? Are they closer to standard Serbo-Croatian or to standard Slovenian? I read in a Bulgarian-language grammar of Serbo-Croatian that the Kaykavian Croats initially called their language Slavic/Slovenian. Are they Croatianized Slovenians? The fact that such an important word as "what" is "kaj" in both Kaykavian dialects of Croatia and Slovenian language and "sto" in Serbo-Croatian would seem to suggest that we are talking about Slovenian dialects and not Croatian.

    #406819

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I want to clarify from the beginning that this thread is not intended to offend Croats with Kaykavian dialects as mother tongue but I simply want to find out: are the Kaykavian dialects from Croatia much different from Slovenian language? Are they mutually comprehensible? To what degree? Are they closer to standard Serbo-Croatian or to standard Slovenian? I read in a Bulgarian-language grammar of Serbo-Croatian that the Kaykavian Croats initially called their language Slavic/Slovenian. Are they Croatianized Slovenians? The fact that such an important word as "what" is "kaj" in both Kaykavian dialects of Croatia and Slovenian language and "sto" in Serbo-Croatian would seem to suggest that we are talking about Slovenian dialects and not Croatian.

    It's tricky. Croats may say what they want, but Kajkavian is way closer to the Slovene language than it is to standart Croatian. It does actually sound like a dialect of Slovene. Example:

    Kajkavian: Kaj ti bum naredil?
    Slovene: Kaj ti bom naredil?
    Croatian: Sta cu da ti napravim?

    Through history and even today it was very close to Slovene. ANYHOW, the Kajkavian Croats mostly didn't see themselves as Slovenes. Peple in Prekmurje speak a dialect which is closer to Croatian than Standart Slovene have always felt they're Slovene. Kajkavians haven't. Though their language is very similar to our, they identify as Croats and I don't think there were any Slovenes which would (practically ;) )claim their teritory for Slovenia. Slovenes and Kajkavians were always good friends, since the borders are more or less based on a handful of small rivers (Kolpa, Sotla, etc.).

    Maybe you can find more here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect

    #406820

    Anonymous

    I don't speak it so I can't say anything valuable but, maybe it's case of dialect continuum ? Like Torlakian Serbian, when people hear it they usually think it's Bulgarian or Macedonian.

    #406821

    Anonymous

    Also, how similar/different are kajkavian and chakavian ?

    #406822

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Also, how similar/different are kajkavian and chakavian ?

    I guess we must compare them! :)

    Linda Gizdulić – Saka bi te tela

    Btw Štajerc; Stanko Vraz in da house back on the track! :D

    Duško Modrinić & klapa Bistrica – Veselje naj bu z nami (Krapina 2012) Nove popevke HQ

    #406823

    Anonymous

    Čakavian is closer to Štokavian, Kajkavian to Styrian dialects of Slovene.

    #406824

    Anonymous

    Also an iteresting thing: Slovenes like to play Oberkrainer polka music style. Kajkavian Croats (especially Zagorci) are the only Croats with such a "habit". ;D

    Here an example or original Oberkrainer from Oberkrain in Slovenia:
    Ansambel Saša Avsenika – V Hrašah mam pa tetko (v živo)

    Here an example of Zagorski Oberkrain style (they sing in Kajkavian):
    Ansambl Prijatelji Zagorja – Muzikaši

    #406825

    Anonymous

    Most Croats before SHS used to speak Čakavian-Kajkavian mixture. Massive štokavization of Croats happened due to kingdom of Yugoslavia in order for two biggest nations of Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats, could undestand themselves better and due to overall administration of the country.

    Burgenland Croats on example talk Čakavian-Kajkavian mixture, and they kept the original Croat "lanugage" before they escaped from Slavonia, Bosnia etc due to Ottoman Invasion. Also don't forget that Kajkavian region of Croatia which is Zagreb/Zagorje region is in same time most populated area of Croatia. Croats from the time of settlement have been a mixture of Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects with later massive influx of Štokavization due to politics.

    #406826

    Anonymous

    I believe this is the most archaic idiom of the Kajkavian dialect, Bednjanski govor:

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td]


      [li]Vënčec mýej 

      Vënčec mýej Vënčec
      mýej čerljãni!
      Düge sym ta prëjsilo,
      Môuli čâosek nëjsila.
      čäši' ma čäši mümico;
      Nä bus ma düge čäsolo,
      Kôjti vos myerom estöviti.
      K svãmu sa môužu etpröviti.
      Zo trêyd, z mânu byeg vum noplöti.
      Si sečcï i Morijo möti![/li]

    [/td]
    [td]                              [/td]
    [td]Bednjanska svadba (1.dio)[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    [hr]

    Do Slovenes understand that? I don't, without subtitles I wouldn't even guess it is Slavic when spoken, let alone old-Croatian. :)

    #406827

    Anonymous

    I can only understand a word or two in the clip of Bednjanski govor. But I must say, it sounds great.
    How is this one understandable to you ?
    Co mi co ti – 4. epizoda

    #406828

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't speak it so I can't say anything valuable but, maybe it's case of dialect continuum ? Like Torlakian Serbian, when people hear it they usually think it's Bulgarian or Macedonian.

    I believe this is correct. It's an intermediate language between Croatian ( or western) chakavian/shtokavian and Slovenian. Even within the kajkavian dialect there are subdialects which range from sounding more like standard Croatian to the south and Slovenian to the northwest. A common theory is that Croats assimilated the Slavs that occupied the Zagorje region. It is believed that there were several waves of Slavic migrations into the Balkans and they can be distinguished by their Slavic speech ( remember Slav language back then used to be far more intellegible between all Slavs). The Slav speakers that made up the Croatian nation became thus : Kajkavian-ekavian (Zagreb) , Kajkavian-ikavian (Istria) , Kajkavian-ijekavian ( south of Zagreb) , Chakavian-ikavian (most of Dalmatia and western Bosnia back then), Chakavian-ijekavian ( southern islands like Lastovo), Shtokavian-Ikavian ( Slavonia, Lika , Bosnia, Western Herzegovina), Shtokavian-Ijekavian ( Dubrovnik , Herzegovina, Montenegro) It is believed that the 'core' Croats , the ones that were known as the Croat Slavs that came from Poland/Ukraine were Chakavian-Ikavians while all the others mentioned were early waves of Slavic settlers/invaders that already settled the Adriatic. The Croats became the most powerful Slavs in the Western Balkans and eventually assimilated the other local Slavs plus Vlachs, Illyrians, and other locals. There is far more detail than this but this is a general theory that's widely accepted.

    In conclusion I believe the Kajkavian Croats are from the some core group of Slavs as a lot of those old Slovenes. But its a mistake to call them Slovenes ( or the Slovenes some branch of Croats) because of the development of their nations. The Croatian Kajkavians were always key in the development of the Croatian identity and the Slovenes of theirs respectively.

    No Balkan nation is homogenous but the Slovenes are far more close to homogenous than Croats , Serbs , and Bosniaks.

    #406829

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Do Slovenes understand that? I don't, without subtitles I wouldn't even guess it is Slavic when spoken, let alone old-Croatian. :)

    I doubt they understand it even by themselves! ;D It wasn't understandable to me, only a few words, but the video is also in a bad quality. :- Sounds kind of wierd Hungarian or some hell…

    #406830

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It's tricky. Croats may say what they want, but Kajkavian is way closer to the Slovene language than it is to standart Croatian. It does actually sound like a dialect of Slovene. Example:

    Kajkavian: Kaj ti bum naredil?
    Slovene: Kaj ti bom naredil?
    Croatian: Sta cu da ti napravim?

    Through history and even today it was very close to Slovene. ANYHOW, the Kajkavian Croats mostly didn't see themselves as Slovenes. Peple in Prekmurje speak a dialect which is closer to Croatian than Standart Slovene have always felt they're Slovene. Kajkavians haven't. Though their language is very similar to our, they identify as Croats and I don't think there were any Slovenes which would (practically ;) )claim their teritory for Slovenia. Slovenes and Kajkavians were always good friends, since the borders are more or less based on a handful of small rivers (Kolpa, Sotla, etc.).

    Maybe you can find more here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect

    Is this "bum/bom" difference the same as the difference between Serbo-Croatian/Stokavian "sunce" and Slovene "sonce"? I mean they stand for the same Old Church Slavonic vowel? If so, what is that vowel?
    On Prekmurje dialect: after reading about it on wikipedia it seems it is still a Kajkavian dialect even though you say it's closer to standard Croatian than standard Slovene. Do you have any Chakavian dialects in Slovenia?

    #406831

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I can only understand a word or two in the clip of Bednjanski govor. But I must say, it sounds great.
    How is this one understandable to you ?
    Co mi co ti – 4. epizoda

    It's Čakavian, but I can understand it far better than Bednjanski govor. It is though not Kajkavian. It's funny that many Kajkavians live or work in Slovenia also, as they have it very easy to learn the language and such.

    #406832

    Anonymous

    Most Croats before SHS used to speak Čakavian-Kajkavian mixture. Massive štokavization of Croats happened due to kingdom of Yugoslavia in order for two biggest nations of Yugoslavia, Serbs and Croats, could undestand themselves better and due to overall administration of the country.

    I believe this is incorrect. By the time of SHS , most Croats were already shtokavian speakers of primarily the ikavian/ijekavian accents. Shtokavian expanded out of its southern capsule around Dubronik/Herzegovina a whole two or three centuries earlier. When the Hungarians became more oppressive of Zagreb's influence Dubrovnik began to take over as the center of Croatian heritage, culture, and language. The rebirth of Croatian ethno-nationalism was in Dbk not Zagreb but only expanded there after Ban Jelacic repelled Hungarian deathgrip on northern Croatia. After Napolean fell and his 'Illyrian' state ceased to exist the focus of Croatian nationalism went back to Zagreb but now most of the literature was in Shtokavian. The first Croats to really press for Croatian autonomy/nationalism were from the south and Shtokavians. Add to this, the parallel rise of Serbian nationalism. Vuk Karadzic studied language in Shtokavianized Zagreb ( academia literally transported from Dubrovnik) and himself was part of the Croatian ( 'Illyrian') nationalist movement. He created a phonetic script in cyrillic based on Croatian and Serbian existing local literature and folklore. Gaj , a Slovak by origin , made a latin version as well which became the standard cyrillic/latin scripts of Croatian and Serbian today. This helped bring the Serbs closer to us and the rest is bla bla more history but we all know how it turned out :(.

    Burgenland Croats on example talk Čakavian-Kajkavian mixture, and they kept the original Croat "lanugage" before they escaped from Slavonia, Bosnia etc due to Ottoman Invasion. Also don't forget that Kajkavian region of Croatia which is Zagreb/Zagorje region is in same time most populated area of Croatia. Croats from the time of settlement have been a mixture of Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects with later massive influx of Štokavization due to politics.

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