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  • #344932

    Anonymous

    I want to know all about this letter. Its lingustic characteristics, history behind it, etc. Btw to me it sounds more like our v. I watch this educational program, they say its el but then they pronounce like v hence vopata instead of lopata. :D

    Mini mini abecadło litera Ł

    #407460

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I want to know all about this letter. Its lingustic characteristics, history behind it, etc. Btw to me it sounds more like our v. I watch this educational program, they say its el but then they pronounce like v hence vopata instead of lopata. :D

    Mini mini abecadło litera Ł

    Ł is not a like v, is like u. Polish people are using three types of u : "u", "ł" and "ó". I'm curious how they know when they should use one type and not the other  :).

    #407461

    Anonymous

    It's originally unpalatalised L (the palatalised Llj was depalatalised in most cases, but is still pronounced [l]) . Then it changed to [ɫ] (the East Slavic л, English "dark l"), and in a phonetic change known as "wałczenie" in most of Poland changed further into [w] (in some dialects it's still pronounced the East Slavic way, but this pronunciation is dying).

    #407462

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Ł is not a like v, is like u. Polish people are using three types of u : "u", "ł" and "ó". I'm curious how they know when they should use one type and not the other  :).

    I can't speak polish so i can't be judge of that but when comparing ł with closest Slovene letter then v is closest. At least from that video anyway. :D

    Quote:
    It's originally unpalatalised L (the palatalised Llj was depalatalised in most cases, but is still pronounced [l]) . Then it changed to [ɫ] (the East Slavic л, English "dark l"), and in a phonetic change known as "wałczenie" in most of Poland changed further into [w] (in some dialects it's still pronounced the East Slavic way, but this pronunciation is dying).

    What is East Slavic way? Examples please. :)

    #407463

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    (…) What is East Slavic way? Examples please. :)

    Here you have pronunciation (press play). Or ask a Russian how they pronounce л :P

    #407464

    Anonymous

    So did wrriten Ł exist before wałczenie process? How do you wrrite those L's in those Polish dialects which keept East Slavic version?

    #407465

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So did wrriten Ł exist before wałczenie process? How do you wrrite those L's in those Polish dialects which keept East Slavic version?

    Yes, it existed (most educated Poles spoked "Eastern" Ł before WWI (wałczenie was considered vulgar even in 20th century), and maybe even the majority spoke like that before WWII and relocation of people from Kresy to western Poland). In these dialects it's written the same (if written, in Poland it's usually a shame to use a dialect even in informal situations, not mentioning written language).

    #407466

    Anonymous

    I like it how in Poland the "vulgar" wałczenie became dominant. :D Here this phenomenon (similar altho i dunno if it same) is called švapanje. Standard did embrace spelling of some words in this manner but most have to be pronounced like proper L so some dialects like mine are mocked becouse we don't pronounce it like proper L so ti is considered vulgar. Fascist linguists have gone so far, many parents try to enfforce their kids don't use švapanje. Bastards…. >:(

    Anyway how come the "vulgar" wałczenie triumphed over "correct" one?

    #407467

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I like it how in Poland the "vulgar" wałczenie became dominant. :D Here this phenomenon (similar altho i dunno if it same) is called švapanje. Standard did embrace spelling of some words in this manner but most have to be pronounced like proper L so some dialects like mine are mocked becouse we don't pronounce it like proper L so ti is considered vulgar. Fascist linguists have gone so far, many parents try to enfforce their kids don't use švapanje. Bastards…. >:(

    Let Poland annex you, I promise that pronunciation with L would be banned :P

    Anyway how come the "vulgar" wałczenie triumphed over "correct" one?

    The process was AFAIK known in 16th century. At first it was found only among the lower classes, but it was so widespread, that after some time also nobles began to speak like that (I think that this began in 19th century, maybe the "correct" way of pronunciation was considered too Russian?).

    Later only Poles speaking "correct" L were living in Kresy (eastern Poland, now part of Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania). After the Kresy were taken from Poland, the Poles living here were mostly relocated into western Poland, on former German lands. That resulted in heavy mixing, completele loss of dialect (AFAIK almost all people in western Poland speak standard Polish, the so-called New Mixed Dialect are mostly a lie), and loss of the old "high" pronunciation of Ł.

    #407468

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Let Poland annex you, I promise that pronunciation with L would be banned :P

    Yes! :D Good plan.

    Quote:
    The process was AFAIK known in 16th century. At first it was found only among the lower classes, but it was so widespread, that after some time also nobles began to speak like that (I think that this began in 19th century, maybe the "correct" way of pronunciation was considered too Russian?).

    Later only Poles speaking "correct" L were living in Kresy (eastern Poland, now part of Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania). After the Kresy were taken from Poland, the Poles living here were mostly relocated into western Poland, on former German lands. That resulted in heavy mixing, completele loss of dialect (AFAIK almost all people in western Poland speak standard Polish, the so-called New Mixed Dialect are mostly a lie), and loss of the old "high" pronunciation of Ł.

    I see. Thanks for answer.

    #407469

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I can't speak polish so i can't be judge of that but when comparing ł with closest Slovene letter then v is closest. At least from that video anyway. :D

    It's the way that I remebered, learning Polish. But now my boyfriend is smiling at me, saying that this is the way that "ł" is explained for the foreigners, to catch it simply.  Excuse me for the mistake.

    #407470

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It's the way that I remebered, learning Polish. But now my boyfriend is smiling at me, saying that this is the way that "ł" is explained for the foreigners, to catch it simply.  Excuse me for the mistake.

    Ok. No problem. :D

    #407471

    Anonymous

    I was always intrigued how do changes like that start  =]
    Like , some guy wakes up one day and starts pronouncing L as V and everyone else follows xD ?
    When I hear some Polish words with that letter ,which are shred with Serbian, it sound to me like children speaking those words , like posadziła,płakała etc.
    And ,tqr, if I understood – your LJ became L ?
    What about your rz ? Was it pronounced like simple r and later evolved into ''ż'' ?

    #407472

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I was always intrigued how do changes like that start  =]
    Like , some guy wakes up one day and starts pronouncing L as V and everyone else follows xD ?

    Basically sound slowly changes into a) what's easier to say b) what's easier distinguished c) what helps differentiate merging endings etc. Modern Polish Ł is easier to say than the "Eastern" Ł. Now, because there's no "Eastern Polish" Ł, normal L in Polish often moves towards this sound. Another example would be pronunciation of cluster prz. Originally that probably would be pž, but because pronouncing voiced and devoiced consonants in the same cluster is harder than pronouncing all of them either voiced or devoiced, this cluster is now pronounced pš. Voicing and devoicing are one of the most prominent sound changes in Polish. Poles generally are unable to pronounce voiced-devoiced clusters.

    Another example of such voicing and devoicing is Serbia and Serbska (AFAIK you also have this), the "b" in second word is pronounced as "p" (but still written "b" for spelling purposes – in Polish you always write the word the same ways, it doesn't matter if in some forms some consonants are voiced or devoiced. That's quite convenient when you write :) In Polish consonants can became voiced or devoiced between words too.

    When I hear some Polish words with that letter ,which are shred with Serbian, it sound to me like children speaking those words , like posadziła,płakała etc.

    That's probably because children tend to have problems with pronunciation, and they pronounce the words in simplified way – they perform the work of tens of generations much faster :)

    Also, I didn't heard much of South Slavic, but it certainly didn't sound childish for me. The languages that sound childish to me are Czech and Slovak :D

    And ,tqr, if I understood – your LJ became L ?

    Yes, for example ludzie – people, and łódź – boat. In ludzie one had a palatalised l (lj, ль), in łódź non palatalised, which later changed into w-sound. Identical development was in Russian and other East Slavic languages.

    What about your rz ? Was it pronounced like simple r and later evolved into ''ż'' ?

    Yes, it was pronounced like r (but I'm not sure, probably r that changed into rz was palatalised). Later it changed into a sound identical with modern Czech ř, and later into an allophone of ż. The change from Czech-like sound to ž wasn't uniform, AFAIK some Polish Silesian dialects still use the Czech sound. In Silesia there's a phonetic change called mazurzenie – basically it means that š changes into s, č into c, and ž into z. But Silesian rz doesn't undergo this change, even if it's pronounced identical to ž (that shows that the change was quite recent). In mazurzące dialects of Silesian dobrze (well) is pronounced dobrze, but żaba (frog) is pronounced zaba.

    #407473

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    When I hear some Polish words with that letter ,which are shred with Serbian, it sound to me like children speaking those words , like posadziła,płakała etc.

    Really? :) To me their Ł is cools i realy like it. :D

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