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  • #344079

    Anonymous

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    After a long travel across eastern Europe, as well as my own south-eastern one, I realised through various discussions with my fellow Slavs, that firm positions are benefactory if inclined towards the others, but only positions of tolerance and understanding will benefit our people among themselves.

    Yes our traditions vary, our history is often contradictory to one anothers, we waged wars against each other, as well as against the others, however we still share the same cradle… We are Slavs.

    I am opening this thread, because after a lot of thinking and discussion with other fellow Slavs, especially Bosniaks, which are the only people which we tend to marginalize from our circle, I came to the conclusion that this marginalisation has to stop eventually, if we are ever going to pursuit stability and solidarity in our ancestral regions.
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    I will add my honest opinion considering Bosnia, and what I believe is necessary to build mutual trust with the people residing there. I encourage other south Slavs as well as any Slavs having relations or interest into Bosnia, share their opinions as well, would they include ethnical, religious, historical, linguistical consensus or political and economical ideas, is up to oneself to decide.

    The following opinion is from the solely Serbian and my own personal perspective, meaning that it will probably not find approval in all its points among other Slavs.

    [hr]

    It is a traditional fact among the Serbs, that M[size=1pt]'[/size]uslims or Bosniaks are the most directly related Slavic ethnicity by blood and kin to us Serbs, even more than Croats, Macedonians and Bulgarians. Unfortunately we marginalise them for not being Christian Orthodox as we are, while in the same time ironically while forbiding them to feel as Serbs, despise them for not accepting that they are Serbs and should contribute to the general Serbdom.

    In our historical understanding and tradition, the Bosniaks are is[size=1pt]'[/size]lamised Serbs. Those Serbs that weren't lucky enough to seek refuge in the highlands, thus being forced to adapt to the new situation in order to survive. There is a mutual distrust that followed after the fall of feudalism, since the class that was falling wasn't just the rulling class as seen everywhere else in Europe, but also by religion and tradition different than the ones beneath it.

    As mentioned above this is the traditional understanding, that will not shift in any given time, however there is place for tolerance and understanding. Bosniaks today are a separate ethnicity, with its own culture and tradition, regardless do we consider them Serbs by kin or not. I embrace and tolerate their newly ignited Slavic spirit, which after half of millenia still wasn't extinguished, and kept on burning, this has to be applauded. Eventhough I embrace its flame, I still await the fire.

    Bosniaks have to understand that after the civil war, Serbs will need time to rebuild their trust in them in order for the Bosnian state to function more properly, thus with more solidarity. Letting your Slavic spirit burst into fire, accepting your old medieval kings, which we also share with you, as the building fundament of your people, will help this trust to be reconstructed, inclining however to the other side which brought us nothing but harm, will however not help the process.

    I[size=1pt]'[/size]slam is not the problem, nor the tradition and culture that it formed among your people. I embrace a proud Bosniak, proud M[size=1pt]'[/size]uslim and a proud Slav willing to share his m[size=1pt]'[/size]uslim tradition with me, but in that Bosniak I want to see a brother that is of the same kin as I am, knowing of his history and roots, knowing that at least from our perspective his allegiance should lay in his blood, not in the words and prophecies of others, even if those words have formed his culture to a degree.

    #396620

    Anonymous

    So, what are you asking? Bosniaks and Serbs become friends?

    #396621

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So, what are you asking? Bosniaks and Serbs become friends?

    No this is just one of his good old Bosniaks are Serbs rants. Remember you are talking to a man to whom Kosače and Hrvatinići are ethnic Serbs, just let it be Svevlad, just let him be…

    P.S.: He ruined what could have been a good thread.

    #396622

    Anonymous

    I think he got the Republika Srpska flag wrong. I thought the eagle in the middle was the RSK flag?

    #396623

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    No this is just one of his good old Bosniaks are Serbs rants. Just let it be.

    P.S.: He ruined what could have been a good thread.

    It is not a rant, as mentioned multiple times in the post, it is solely a Serbian perspective on the issue, posting anything else wouldn't be honest, you are free and encouraged to post your own opinion. You are one of those that want a functional country, spend more time by understanding its functional corpus, namely the opinion of its citizens.

    P.S. Svevlad, its the flag of the parlament, the normal flag is without the coat of arms. More so I am also aware that the FBiH flag is outdated since 2007, however there is no new one at the time being.

    #396624

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is not a rant, as mentioned multiple times in the post, it is solely a Serbian perspective on the issue, posting anything else wouldn't be honest, you are free and encouraged to post your own opinion. You are one of those that want a functional country, spend more time by understanding its functional corpus, namely the opinion of its citizens.

    Okay let's drop your "Serbian perspective" for a second and go back in the real world.

    This is for the claim that Serbs and Bosniaks cluster closer than any other nation.

    image

    BA represents Bosniaks, RS represents Serbs in Bosnia, YU represents Serbs in Serbia and Monteneggro (I know that they could have been more accurate in naming nations here, but what you can't expect from an Anglo to be interested in our shi.tty region).

    And for Kosače, Hrvatinići (ethnic Croats of which was the former later assimilated into Bosniaks) and Kotromanići (descendents of a house of Germanic origins whose ancestors were sent by Hungarians to Bosnia to prevent CROATIZATION of the proto Bosniaks which had no alliance to either Croats or Serbs) to be Serbs isn't exactly a claim a sane mind in 21. century would make.  ::)

    #396625

    Anonymous

    RS and YG are both for Serbia, and you could  se lot of small ygs arround of BA (which is population of Bosnia regardless of ethnicity). Anyway, concerning who was what by ethnicity Kosače, Kotromanići and others, we allready discussed 1000 times. Same as who "did not have any aliances with whom". There are three different views on history of medieval Bosnia. Serbs claim it Serbian land, Croats Croatian, Bosniaks claim it was separate ethnicity.

    On topic, I really dont see reason for that on this forum

    #396626

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    On topic, I really dont see reason for that on this forum

    I am interested to see which could be the points of consensus, since I have the feeling there are such.

    If there are none, Bosnia is done for, since no country can operate without consensus in which direction the nation should head for, meaning it stagnates and dissolves.

    #396627

    Anonymous

    Bosnian ethnicities (religions, to be precise) can get closer on the ground of Slavdom. If all three groups (and others) recognize that they are Slavic brothers and sisters then it would not be problem in ethnic determinations. Additionally, all of them have to accept Bosnia as their homeland. One of them should say "Turkey, fuck off, we are Slavs!" and other two should say to our neighbors "we are brothers, but our home is Bosnia and Herzegovina".

    Our national goal is to have educated youth that can transform our God-given resources into national wealth. Economic well-being will lower fascist tendencies among three peoples. Also, strong educational system is needed for cultural reform and Slavic revival of the country. 

    #396628

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Bosnian ethnicities (religions, to be precise) can get closer on the ground of Slavdom. If all three groups (and others) recognize that they are Slavic brothers and sisters then it would not be problem in ethnic determinations. Additionally, all of them have to accept Bosnia as their homeland. One of them should say "Turkey, **** off, we are Slavs!" and other two should say to our neighbors "we are brothers, but our home is Bosnia and Herzegovina".

    Our national goal is to have educated youth that can transform our God-given resources into national wealth. Economic well-being will lower fascist tendencies among three peoples. Also, strong educational system is needed for cultural reform and Slavic revival of the country. 

    Good one :)

    I'm following ,thread is still on the good path  ;D

    #396629

    Anonymous

    Slavic brother and sisterhood crosses lines between Eastern Orthodox, Latin Rite and Rodnovery.  Bosnian Muslims are Slavs and there should be a way to remember, but not be trapped by the past.  The wars from the end of Yugoslavia killed enough and caused enough pain.  Maybe I'm naive because I'm in the USA, but hate to see the divisions continue.  I have had Bosnian Muslim students in school and if they never said they were Muslims, you would never know.  They were polite and hardworking kids.

    #396630

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sorry to jump in to your debate but as I see it Bosnian ******s (not refering to anyone here but rather political, religious and cultural leaders of Bosniaks in general) are doing all they can to separate Serbs from the medieval Bosnian history. So from my perspective they are trying to alienate like 40% of there total population from the history that is unquestionably theirs as well.

    So if almost 40% of your population consider them self to be Serb, and they have just as much claim on that history just as any other Bosniak, wouldn't that by default mean all of Serbs can then claim that history as a part of there own? So you see thats the problem, ether all Serbs can claim it or no Serb can claim it because if Serbs can claim it, then everything that Dalibor said here would be right and would make complete sense. If not then my view on things (like is said in the first paragraph) is correct.

    And just to be clear, I'm not denying the Bosniak nationality nor your claim for Bosnian history. But it is evident that our history is shared and nether nation can have more claim to it. So what I tried to make you understand is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. You cant say there was no Bosnia and Bosnians/Bosniaks but you also cant say that at least a very good part of them (if not most) were not Serbs.

    [size=10pt]Very nicely put, I opened a thread 'Let's fix Bosnia' in the BiH forum, hoping this question would arise (I will repost it there, since I would like the discussion to continue under that topic, if you are right with it.). [/size]

    Namely I see this issue as the probably first and most important part of what could be a historical consensus. Bosniaks already embraced their pre-ottoman history, as I had the possibility to experience with my own eyes, while I was visiting some Bosniak cities and towns. If they find the will or courage (I don't know how to put it) to accept that the pre-ottoman history, namely Tvrtko and the rest, are not solely their posession but also shared by Serbs and Croats alike, as partly their rulers, kings and monarchs (not because Serbs and Croats want it, but because it is stated like that in the general history) then I see a first glimpse of hope necessary to rebuild relations between our Slavic ethnicities.

    One has to bear in mind, we do not want Bosniaks to reject the pre-ottoman history as not their own, because IT IS their own, nor do we want them to start identifying as Serbs, which they aren't, what we want from them is to go a rational step further and accept that this history is also shared by others. I personally see this step as the most easiest for the Bosniaks to achieve, as well as the most important one. If all three ethnicities share a common history, then they can participate in a common future.

    #396631

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sorry to jump in to your debate but as I see it Bosnian ******s (not refering to anyone here but rather political, religious and cultural leaders of Bosniaks in general) are doing all they can to separate Serbs from the medieval Bosnian history. So from my perspective they are trying to alienate like 40% of there total population from the history that is unquestionably theirs as well.

    Because the modern Serb population of Bosnia today consists of Serb migrants from Serbian Highlands which were brought here during the Ottoman resettlement policies and the need to fill in the gap left by exodus of Bosniak Catholics which fled after they cooperated with Austrians in sacking of Sarajevo.

    The smoking gun here is the prof that quite a hefty number of the mosques the Serbs destroyed in the last war and communists in the aftermath of a war before that one, were actually older than 99% of Orthodox religious facilities (churches and monasteries) outside East Herzegovina and pockets in southern Podrinje.

    And I have yet to see a Bosniak leader which tried to distance Serbs from medieval Bosnia, everyone from Tihić to Lagumđija have tried to rally them behind the lilly banner.

    I personally have always objected to forcing down Bosniak history and identity down the throats of Bosnian Serbs and Croats, the same way how I fought Croatian and Serb attempts to claim OUR history with their knowledge of what Kotromanići and Bosniaks of old were better than they themselves ::)

    You "pan-Bosnianist" or whatever, need to sit down, take some time and take in the fact that Serbs and Croats today belong to separate nations and ethnicities.
    Bosniak Catholics for nearly last 200 years have identified with Croatdom, even despite the best efforts of Bosniak Catholic clergy to prevent their assimilation they have failed. And there is no way to make them Bosniaks again, the same way way how Bosniaks of Krajina will ever more identify with Croatian checkerboard or Sandžaklije will ever be able to consider Serb medieval kings of old as their own, it is that bloody simple.

    While you want to force the Bosnian Serbs to become something which they never were. Vast majority of people who today call themselves Serbs can trace their origins to Old Serbia (Montenegro, Sandžak/Raška and eastern Herzegovina), they are the descendants of the people against whom did medieval Bosniaks after our kings embracing Catholicism waged a camping which lasted for decades to bring the Serb clans under the authority of Bobovac throne. The atrocities done there by our idiotic Kings in order to please the Pope (by eliminating the remnants of an Orthodox Kingdom) can be only be compared to the prosecutions of the same moral midgets in power against their OWN people for following a slightly different faith which didn't include admitting some divine authority of those Vatican deviants.

    "Pan-Bosnianists" don't even do anywhere nearly the same amount of damage to integrity of Bosnia as the separatists do admittedly, but you are an obstructing element to stabilization of Bosnia. Because you people do what the Croats and Serbs tried to do to us in the last century (and no one likes the taste of their own medicine). Why can't you just go with a fact that one state can be for three people instead of forcing another failed "pan thing" which is going to go down the same road as Yugoslav identity did?

    #396632

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Why can't you just go with a fact that one state can be for three people instead of forcing another failed "pan thing" which is going to go down the same road as Yugoslav identity did?

    I absolutely agree.

    #396633

    Anonymous

    nor do we want them to start identifying as Serbs, which they aren't

    You said couple of times that they are Serbs and if they would like to return to Serbdom, they are welcome. Why did you change your mind?

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