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  • #433056

    Anonymous

    Interesting. Looks like fun.
    We don't do that in Slovenia, but we do a similar (not really) thing on the Saturday before Easter. It's called blagoslov ognja and is the first ritual and blessing of the day. A priest blesses the fire and then people light mushrooms with it and take them home, where they put them on the fireplace (at least in the past). On St. John's day people used to light bonefires but one doesn't really see that a lot. And on St George's day (Jurjevo) a guy dressed in green went from house to house and people gave him food and money in exchange for his blessing and good luck. So no lilanje in Slovenia …

    image
    kresilne gobe at blagoslov ognja

    image
    zeleni Jurij on Jurjevo

    #433057

    Anonymous

    Dazbog, Croats have the same, they call it kresovi. Kres is our word. From kres meaning fire. Lile actually comes from Gaelic.

    From my yet unpublished article:

    Apart from lighting bonfires, another fire ritual performed during the midsummer night celebration is lightning of the fire sticks, torches known as Lile, svitci, luče and kresovi.

    Lila is, I believe, a word that means lightning and I also believe that it has Irish origin. If we look at the parts of Balkan where word Lila, Lile is used as the name for the fire sticks lit up during summer solstice celebrations, we see that they all fall in the areas which were settled or influenced by the R1b "celts" (central and eastern Serbia). When they arrived in the fourth century BC, they mixed with the local population and accepted their solstice customs, renaming kres into lil, ljilj, ljelj and poljelj.

    image

    Names for Irish: LJELJUJA, PERUNIKA, SABLJA, SABLJARKA, STRIJELKA, IRIS, Lile, Lily

    lile – lily

    So how do we get ljelj or ljelja or LJELJUJA from this:

    Well lile (meaning lily) is obvious. We can also have laí liath (pronounced in English leeleea or in Serbian lilia ljilja. Ljiljan is Serbian word for lily.) – gray shaft which is perfect description of the fire stick made from metalic gray shiny cherry tree bark. It is also a very good discription of a lightning bolt. We can also have Laigh liath (leelee, lili, gray spear) or Laigh lia (leelee, lili spear of Zevs, Jove, God). All the above words, put in any order and combination give the same picture and are probably all derived from the same root "lia" wich i believe was originally pronounced like "lia" and possibly when pronounced fast sounded like "lja" so we would get lialia, ljalja, ljelja, ljilja. We get poljelj and poljelja when we add bal (white, spot, place where ljelj, ljelja (lightning) have hit the ground) ball + Laigh + lia = white spot + spear + Zevs (Perun) = Perunika, poljelja, sprouting seed of Perun.

    I believe that this is the etymology of the last name of fire stick (lila) as well as last name of perunika (ljeljuja) as well as the name of Triglav's terrible bright shining servants (ljelj, ljelja) lightning, (Hermes and Iris) and their children Poljelj and poljelja (Perunika, fleur-de-luc).

    Stajerc do you know why you light exactly those mushrooms? Because they are the fire mushrooms, used for catching fire when you use primitive fire making tools…And who used to make first fires on Earth? Thunder gods with their silver spears, lightning…Interesting,very interesting…

    #433058

    Anonymous

    Krijes, kresovi, svitnjak st. John (summer), vuzmenke for Easter in north Croatia… In Croatia also:
    Ljelje su djevojke iz sela Gorjani kod Đakova koje u proljeće, o blagdanu Duhova, odjevene kao kraljice obilaze selo i izvode ritual sastavljen od osobitih pjesama i mačevnog plesa.[1]

    Običaj ne potječe iz turskog doba, kako se često priča, nego iz pradavnih vremena Slavena. Uloge kraljica i kraljeva (djevojaka sa urešenim šeširima na glavi kao oznakama muškoga spola), te čauša, zastavnika, djeveruša i djevera otkrivaju svadbenu tematiku ovih ophoda. Smatra se da je Ljelja žena slavenskog boga Peruna. Premda značenje i izvor ovog rituala nije pouzdano poznat, seljani ga smatraju simbolom sela Gorjani i prikazom ljepote i elegancije njihovih mladih.

    Kraljice-ljelje (kraće "ljelje") i kraljevi (kraljičari) su naziv za duhovski ophod djevojaka. Počiva na mitskoj priči o nebeskim kraljicama i kraljevima koji nemaju sveze s ovozemaljskim kraljevstvom. Ljelja i Ljeljo su djeca boga Peruna prema hrvatskim vjerovanjima. Izgubljena su djeca i ne znaju da su svojta. U kršćanskoj tradiciji su njihova imena promijenjena u Jura i Mara. Običaj se najdulje zadržao u Đakovštini.[2]

    Običaj je u kasnom srednjem vijeku bio poznat Hrvatima diljem prostora koje nastanjavaju. Tako su Gundulić i Palmotić dobro poznavali taj običaj, uspoređivali su ih s Amorom i Kupidom.[3]

    Godišnji proljetni ophod kraljice u Gorjanima, Slavonske kraljice ili Ljelje, narodni običaj, upisan je 1966. godine kao hrvatska kulturna baština. Prepoznat je 2007. kao nematerijalna svjetska baština i 2009. godine upisan je na UNESCO-v popis nematerijalne svjetske baštine u Europi.[4]

    Slavonske kraljice, mačevni ples djevojaka, koji je u tradicijskoj kulturi sjeverne Hrvatske povezan s pomičnim blagdanom Duhova, danas zbog svoje atraktivnosti možemo češće vidjeti na sceni nego u seoskome okružju.[
    Kada Ljelje obilaze selo, dijele se na desetak kraljeva opasanih sabljama i muškim šeširima ukrašenim cvijećem i manji broj kraljica koje, poput mladenki, na glavama imaju bijele vijence.

    Prilikom obilaska raznih obitelji u selu, one odabiru iz svog širokog repertoara, one pjesme koje su primjerene toj obitelji. Najčešće pjevaju djevojci, mladiću ili mlađoj nevjesti. Potom kraljevi izvode ples sa sabljama, a kraljice pjesmom komentiraju plesne figure (zveckanje i križanje mačeva, te provlačenje ispod uzdignutih mačeva). Slijedi narodni ples uz pratnju gajdaša (u novije vrijeme tamburaša) kojemu se mogu pridružiti i ukućani. Nakon što ih počaste hranom i pićem povorka odlazi u drugu kuću.

    Drugog dana Duhova odlaze u susjedno selo ili obližnji gradić. Na kraju slijedi zajednička gozba i zabava kod jedne od sudionica.

    Cijelo selo, uključujući osnovnu školu, crkvu i mnoge seoske obitelji, pomaže u organiziranju ovog ophoda, koji znači mnogo djevojkama koje su odabrane da budu Ljelje.
    It is not unusual why is ljeljulja or lelulja a name for perunika (flower). Ljelja and ljeulja is connected with slavic god Perun, often his wife. Sometimes perunika is called bogiša or nebeski kaćun. All connected with Perun.

    #433059

    Anonymous

    Anyway a very interesting folk tradition in Serbia

    #433060

    Anonymous

    KnezIvan, do you have a link to any web pages or documents about wooden pyramids which are built and burnt in Zagorje? I think for Ivandan…

    #433061

    Anonymous
    #433062

    Anonymous

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwpM9CUBdeA&feature=kp
    http://hrcak.srce.hr/search/?q=krijes
    Maybe these two links could also help.
    The first one is ethnological documnetary about vuzmenke

    #433063

    Anonymous

    Thank you knezlvan.

    #433064

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Stajerc do you know why you light exactly those mushrooms? Because they are the fire mushrooms, used for catching fire when you use primitive fire making tools…And who used to make first fires on Earth? Thunder gods with their silver spears, lightning…Interesting,very interesting…

    Are you kidding? Afterall the intention with this is to bring the fire home, how otherwise would a Slovene peasent bring this blessed fire to his farm that could be hours away from the church 500 years ago? By teleport? I don't think so.

    #433065

    Anonymous

    stajerc, that type of mushroom keeps fire. it is called fire mushroom and in Serbocroatian trud. And it is used to take fire home because it burns slowly. When you make fire by friction or using flint, you use this mushroom to catch fire, and then keep it smoldering. 

    #433066

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    stajerc, that type of mushroom keeps fire. it is called fire mushroom and in Serbocroatian trud. And it is used to take fire home because it burns slowly. When you make fire by friction or using flint, you use this mushroom to catch fire, and then keep it smoldering. 

    Haven't I just told the same? If it would be bad in keeping fire alive it wouldn't be used.

    #433067

    Anonymous

    Stajerc, you are right about practical part. What you are not realizing what the reason is for this ritual and how it is connected to the ancient fire rituals dating to paleolithic times. Before people new how to make fire using fire sticks, lightning was the source of fire. People used to look for fire, capture is into these mushrooms and bring them to their village. There the eternal fire was kept by the priests and all the villagers used to get the fire from that communal fire. When people learned to make fire using fire stick, the fire stick became symbol of the lightning. You can use wooden board to create fire in it but you can also do it directly in these mushrooms. These are the real magic mushrooms. I don't think this ritual using mushrooms has been preserved in too many places.

    Anyway, I want to ask a question. I remember reading years ago in some early christian chronicle about northern Slavs that they built strange wooden structures. They were probably these wooden pyramids we still have in Croatia. But I can't find this description any more. Has anyone else seen this and do you know where i can find it?

    Thanks in advance

    #433068

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Stajerc, you are right about practical part. What you are not realizing what the reason is for this ritual and how it is connected to the ancient fire rituals dating to paleolithic times. Before people new how to make fire using fire sticks, lightning was the source of fire. People used to look for fire, capture is into these mushrooms and bring them to their village. There the eternal fire was kept by the priests and all the villagers used to get the fire from that communal fire. When people learned to make fire using fire stick, the fire stick became symbol of the lightning. You can use wooden board to create fire in it but you can also do it directly in these mushrooms. These are the real magic mushrooms. I don't think this ritual using mushrooms has been preserved in too many places.

    Are you joking? There is evidence of man (neanderthals) made fire (with tools) from 70-90 thousand years ago while the first villages were formed abot 10 thousand years BC.

    #433069

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    When I was a child "lilanje" was one of the most exciting events in a year, because it included doing things that are usually forbidden for children.

    Before the ritual begins, a huge fireplace is made on the promised gathering place before the sunset. When the sun finally disappears below the horizon, all children gather around the fire with their handmade "lile" and light them up. When the wooden sticks are set on fire, the children start to simultaneously swing the burning "lile" in circles. The burning fire should scare the evil spirits off, so that the fields with crops would grow freely, which would ensure a rich harvesting year for the villagers. After all "lile" are burned, the children start to jump above the fire for a happy and lucky year. Another important sign are the sparkles that the "lile" and the fire is making. The more sparkles, the richer the harvesting year will get.

    Here's what I found on Wikipedia about "lilanje":

    Lilanje (Serbian cyrilic:лилање Serbian pronounce:lilaɲe) is the religious Serbian national custom when dry birch or cherry cortex placed on the wooden stick named Lila, olalija, oratnik or oratnica is burned. Lilanje is celebrated the night before St John's Eve, Feast of Saints Peter and Paul, Feast of the Ascension and Saint George's Day. Some people think the name olalija comes from the Roman word for the Roman custom Parilia. Mostly just young people are celebrating Lilanje. It is celebrated on the big places like squares where the big fire is placed. This custom is older than Christianity. It has appeared because people thought that in the night fire scares demons and witches and protect people, animals and fields.
    Do other Slavic countries have similar customs?

    This custom was very unusual. In Montenegro, there is no this custom.

    (Ovaj običaj mi je vrlo neobičan. U Crnoj Gori ne postoji ovaj običaj.)

    Quote:
    Dazbog, Croats have the same, they call it kresovi. Kres is our word. From kres meaning fire. Lile actually comes from Gaelic.

    From my yet unpublished article:

    Stajerc do you know why you light exactly those mushrooms? Because they are the fire mushrooms, used for catching fire when you use primitive fire making tools…And who used to make first fires on Earth? Thunder gods with their silver spears, lightning…Interesting,very interesting…

    It appears that you have given an answer to a question that has long troubled heralds.
    Since there is a heraldic charge, heraldic lily, there dilemma for which she won the title.

    (Izgleda da ste dali odgovor na pitanje koje odavno muči heraldičare.
    Od kad postoji heraldička šarža, heraldički ljiljan, postoji dilema zbog čega ona dobila taj naziv.)

    So here's what it looks like Fleur-de-lis, or heraldic lily, lily abbreviated

    (Pa evo kako izgleda Fleur-de-lis, ili heraldički ljiljan, skraćeno ljiljan)

    image

    And his use of the coat of arms of France.

    (I njegova upotreba u grbu Francuske.)

    image

    Unusually, the meaning of the heraldic lily always compared with a flower Iris and now I understand why this is so.

    Neobično da se značenje heraldičkog ljiljana uvijek poredi sa cvijetom Perunikom i sad mi je jasno zbog čega je to tako.

    #433070

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    This custom was very unusual. In Montenegro, there is no this custom.

    This custom is generally practiced amongst Serbs in western Serbia (Azbukovica, Podrinje, Podgorina, Rađevina, Mačva and Kolubara region) and Republic of Srpska (eastern Hercegovina, Semberija and Romanija region).

    These regions, apart from the linguistic differentiation of ekavian and ijekavijan narečje, culturally cluster together, so it's quite common that we share the same customs.

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