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  • #342155

    Anonymous

    Source (in Polish): http://wyborcza.pl/1,91446,10280420,Litwa__Grybauskaite_o_lojalnosci_litewskich_Polakow.html

    There has been some controversy regarding the ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania. The issue stems from the 1994 Polish-Lithuanian agreement on the fact that citizens of each nation will be loyal to that nation regardless of the fact whether they are Polish Lithuanians or Lithuanian Poles. A point of contention has been that Poland allows its ethnic Lithuanians to spell their names, even on official documents, with Lithuanian phonetics. Lithuania, on the other hand, requires that its Polish minority convert its names to Lithuanian phonetics for official documents such as passports. Poles in Lithuania have protested publicly as a result of this, while Lithuanian president, Dalia Grybauskaite, assured the Polish government that Lithuania is being fair to its minorities.

    #363475

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Source (in Polish): http://wyborcza.pl/1,91446,10280420,Litwa__Grybauskaite_o_lojalnosci_litewskich_Polakow.html

    There has been some controversy regarding the ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania. The issue stems from the 1994 Polish-Lithuanian agreement on the fact that citizens of each nation will be loyal to that nation regardless of the fact whether they are Polish Lithuanians or Lithuanian Poles. A point of contention has been that Poland allows its ethnic Lithuanians to spell their names, even on official documents, with Lithuanian phonetics. Lithuania, on the other hand, requires that its Polish minority convert its names to Lithuanian phonetics for official documents such as passports. Poles in Lithuania have protested publicly as a result of this, while Lithuanian president, Dalia Grybauskaite, assured the Polish government that Lithuania is being fair to its minorities.

    So sad that Poles and Lithuanians had argues :/

    #363476

    Anonymous

    Fair, yeah, right. ::) Earlier also they were saying that Poland was not being "objective".
    Here is first lesson in Poland objectivity and fairness for "fair" and "objective" Lithuania:

    Bilingual signs in Polish and Kaszubian:

    image

    Bilingual signs in Polish and German:

    image

    St Vladimir Foundation for Ukrainians:

    image

    And for Lithuanians, one example comes to mind: Gmina Puńsk recognizes Lithuanian language as official language together with Polish since 2006, and approved $450,000 budget for them that year. There are several Lithuanian cultural organisations of Lithuanians since 1992, several buildings dedicated to them (including ethnographic museum in Seyny), 17 Lithuanian schools where Lithuanian is official as well as meetings and music festivals, all funded by Polish taxes:

    http://www2.mswia.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=61&id=37#litwini
    http://pl.mfa.lt/

    Oh yes, and we don't force them to write their names in Polish form. And then Lithuanian PM condemns recent vandalism of LITHUANIAN language signs in NE Poland? http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/24/us-poland-lithuania-idUSTRE77N00Q20110824

    I won't even get into Lithuanian government neglect of Polish education concerns.

    Very sad state of affairs.

    #363477

    Anonymous

    The quarrels between Lithuanians and Poles are really sad to watch, I like both very much. Maybe the roots of this conflict lie in the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which was dominated by Poles and Belarussians (in fact, Belarussians were the main contributors to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, this why many see them as the original Lithuanians and many Belarussian nationalists like to refer to themselves as Litvins) and present-day Lithuanians felt oppressed and have a negative opinion about it.

    #363478

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    The quarrels between Lithuanians and Poles are really sad to watch, I like both very much. Maybe the roots of this conflict lie in the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which was dominated by Poles and Belarussians (in fact, Belarussians were the main contributors to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, this why many see them as the original Lithuanians and many Belarussian nationalists like to refer to themselves as Litvins) and present-day Lithuanians felt oppressed and have a negative opinion about it.

    You know, I think a lot of this conflict comes from the fact that the Slavs, and even more so the Balts, have to assert themselves as nations on the European and even World stage. The Germans and the French don't have problems, nor do the Spanish and Portuguese, since they have been independent nations on the modern era for much longer. They have found their respective positions and now feel more or less comfortable in them. Like to colleagues who have known each other for some time, they can just read each other and this allows for greater trust. The Slavs and Balts, for obvious reasons, have yet to fully develop their own relations. Things are going good overall, I'd say, but bumps in the road are inevitable.

    Lithuania also feel threatened, probably, since they are 3.3 million people while Poland is 38 million. And most Poles in Lithuania live around the capital, Vilnius. So for Lithuanians, some perceived Polonization of their main city (which was in Poland until 1939), is stressful. Also, historically, many influential Lithuanians voluntarily Polonized and were effectively Poles in their professional life, e.g Adam Mickiewicz. Statues of Mickiewicz in Lithuania spell his name in their orthography, for one.

    We'll see how this goes.

    #363479

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    The quarrels between Lithuanians and Poles are really sad to watch, I like both very much. Maybe the roots of this conflict lie in the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which was dominated by Poles and Belarussians (in fact, Belarussians were the main contributors to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, this why many see them as the original Lithuanians and many Belarussian nationalists like to refer to themselves as Litvins) and present-day Lithuanians felt oppressed and have a negative opinion about it.

    Quarells are similar to historical ones between us and you. Again, Polish authorities treating Lithuanians as second-class citizens during PLC, and later also nationalist rivalry between Poles and Lithuanians from 1918-1945. Sad thing is that Lithuanians, like Ukrainians, have common interests and had common enemies (USSR and Nazi Germany/Russian and German Imperialism, Ottoman Empire/Tatars etc) and we should have stood together against them as one. This just shows you stupidity of some chauvinist (ashamedly, most were Polish szlachta/politicians).

    I like both Lithuanians and Ukrainians very much and it is really pity that relations are soured by silly nonsense like this. All politicians should die.

    Quote:
    You know, I think a lot of this conflict comes from the fact that the Slavs, and even more so the Balts, have to assert themselves as nations on the European and even World stage. The Germans and the French don't have problems, nor do the Spanish and Portuguese, since they have been independent nations on the modern era for much longer. They have found their respective positions and now feel more or less comfortable in them. Like to colleagues who have known each other for some time, they can just read each other and this allows for greater trust. The Slavs and Balts, for obvious reasons, have yet to fully develop their own relations. Things are going good overall, I'd say, but bumps in the road are inevitable.

    Lithuania also feel threatened, probably, since they are 3.3 million people while Poland is 38 million. And most Poles in Lithuania live around the capital, Vilnius. So for Lithuanians, some perceived Polonization of their main city (which was in Poland until 1939), is stressful. Also, historically, many influential Lithuanians voluntarily Polonized and were effectively Poles in their professional life, e.g Adam Mickiewicz. Statues of Mickiewicz in Lithuania spell his name in their orthography, for one.

    We'll see how this goes.

    Good analysis, especially first part.

    #363480

    Anonymous

    I'm convinced that things will get better. We have the opportunity to learn from the past and most important, we are willing to do so.

    #363483

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Fair, yeah, right. ::) Earlier also they were saying that Poland was not being "objective".
    Here is first lesson in Poland objectivity and fairness for "fair" and "objective" Lithuania:

    Bilingual signs in Polish and Kaszubian:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Powiat_Pucczi_2_ubt.jpeg

    Bilingual signs in Polish and German:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Cisek2.jpg/400px-Cisek2.jpg

    St Vladimir Foundation for Ukrainians:
    http://uplpad.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/FundacjaSwWlodzimierza1.JPG/800px-FundacjaSwWlodzimierza1.JPG

    And for Lithuanians, one example comes to mind: Gmina Puńsk recognizes Lithuanian language as official language together with Polish since 2006, and approved $450,000 budget for them that year. There are several Lithuanian cultural organisations of Lithuanians since 1992, several buildings dedicated to them (including ethnographic museum in Seyny), 17 Lithuanian schools where Lithuanian is official as well as meetings and music festivals, all funded by Polish taxes:

    http://www2.mswia.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=61&id=37#litwini
    http://pl.mfa.lt/

    Oh yes, and we don't force them to write their names in Polish form. And then Lithuanian PM condemns recent vandalism of LITHUANIAN language signs in NE Poland? http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/24/us-poland-lithuania-idUSTRE77N00Q20110824

    I won't even get into Lithuanian government neglect of Polish education concerns.

    Very sad state of affairs.

    It's obvious the majority wants to rule over the minority in every land, thus the majority often look at the minority as the potential brake of majority's interests… so the majority always tries to eliminate the minority – in our case through assimilation (thus forcing the minority to become a part of majority), in extreme cases through displacement. Some majorities do it slower and more kindly, some not. Neither Lithuania nor Poland is any exception, but the difference is whether they do compromises or some of them still cry, accuse the other one and in doing so they ignore own minorities (I really dislike the last one). OK, Polish authorities aren't any saints but to be fair, they are able to admit their guilt and correct the things. E.g. Polish returning board proclaimed in 2002 the Slovak minority in Poland has only 2 000 persons. But after protests (by letters) of the minority Poland admitted the number is much higher – 47 000. Hungarian authorities wouldn't admit their guilt like Poland.
    Here I'm on the Polish side, 'cause IMO the Lithuanians are little bit paranoid of everything Slavic. A friend of mine had studied in Vilnius and it was like that :

    [size=8pt]–  Are you a Russian?
    + No..
    –  But your language sounds Slavic.
    + Actually it's Slavic.
    –  So you are a Pole? It's more like Polish indeed.
    + Neither..
    –  Because Poles are Slavic like Russians and we do not like Russians, they ruled over us such a long time.
    + OK.
    –  We think all Slavs are like Russians… oh, how much we hate them!
    + OK..
    [/size]

    ::)

    #363484

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It's also something I observed: Slavs seem to be far less attracted to chauvinism than Germanics. See relations between us and you for example, except for some rare chauvinist idiots Polish-Ukrainian relations are getting better and better, despite the crimes against Ukrainians during Second Polish Republic and the tragedy in Volyn. Maybe it's because most of the time we were fighting for our survival against occupying powers and so had no time to develop a superiority complex which many Germanics, whose countries for the most time used to be superpowers, seem to have.

    The case here is, I think, that Poles used to have lots of "super power chauvinism" back in the days of the PLC. There was also healthy patriotism there to, inevitably. This all went on after the partitions and there were uprisings and lots of Polish stuff brewing. However, after Poland found itself on the map again, that empire mentality was largely gone. Piłsudski, who didn't mind a non-homogenous state, was more for the Międzymorze, or Intermarium Alliance. Roman Dmowski, Piłsudki's rival was all for a homogenous Poland (this led to repressions of other Slavs within Poland's borders), but neither was fervently expansionist and claiming land all over the place.

    The Germans, and more precisely the Prussians, were batshit crazy irredentists calling Poland a "seasonal state" to be reclaimed for German administration. The Bolsheviks, Jews and Russians, were also land grabbers at every opportunity. With Poland and Ukraine caught in the middle, I think one can say that the modern sense of our respective nations is based on the Polish-Bolshevik War in which Ukraine played a big role on Poland's side. We have our disagreements, but when the shit gets rough, we are ready to stand together.

    Germans and Russians, on the other hand, see the lands between Berlin and Moscow as their wiggle room. This also goes back to circa the First World War when, basically, the modern era started and they wiggled (for lack of a better word) quite a lot at our expense.

    Ok, wow, I am veered off the OP here… but back to Lithuania, I think they are just farther back in asserting themselves. They have yet to feel comfortable or choose a direction for their nation. They joined NATO and the EU, but those are increasingly shaky and proving useless. They fear, perhaps rightfully so, another occupation since for them it is hard to imagine anything else.

    #363485

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Here I'm on the Polish side, 'cause IMO the Lithuanians are little bit paranoid of everything Slavic. A friend of mine had studied in Vilnius and it was like that :

    [size=8pt]–  Are you a Russian?
    + No..
    –  But your language sounds Slavic.
    + Actually it's Slavic.
    –  So you are a Pole? It's more like Polish indeed.
    + Neither..
    –  Because Poles are Slavic like Russians and we do not like Russians, they ruled over us such a long time.
    + OK.
    –  We think all Slavs are like Russians… oh, how much we hate them!
    + OK..
    [/size]

    ::)

    LOL What ignorance and stupidity by that Litwin. It's pure jealousy of Slavs. Also isn't it funny how he speaks on behalf of Lithuanians?

    #363486

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:
    Here I'm on the Polish side, 'cause IMO the Lithuanians are little bit paranoid of everything Slavic. A friend of mine had studied in Vilnius and it was like that :

    [size=8pt]–  Are you a Russian?
    + No..
    –  But your language sounds Slavic.
    + Actually it's Slavic.
    –  So you are a Pole? It's more like Polish indeed.
    + Neither..
    –  Because Poles are Slavic like Russians and we do not like Russians, they ruled over us such a long time.
    + OK.
    –  We think all Slavs are like Russians… oh, how much we hate them!
    + OK..
    [/size]

    ::)

    LOL What ignorance and stupidity by that Litwin. It's pure jealousy of Slavs. Also isn't it funny how he speaks on behalf of Lithuanians?

    I think this guy is a bad exception. I know a couple of Lithuanians too and they are very intelligent, nice and sympathic persons.

    #363487

    Anonymous

    That's what I meant when I said: "Also isn't it funny how he speaks on behalf of Lithuanians?"
    I have no issue with Lithuanians, but like with all countries, you have stupid people there too.

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