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  • #342384

    Anonymous

    I have been very interested by the genetics of Lithuanians. I have a theory. Apparently Lithuanians have heavy Finno-Ugric influence because the Baltic tribes mixed with Finno-Ugrics living in the Baltic. Hence in my view Lithuanians are Balto-Finns.

    However, when we say Finno-Ugric, do we mean the actualy Finno-Ugrics who migrated from Eurasia or the native Europeans with whom the Finno-Ugrics later assimilated into? In this case one could say the Balts are more related to the Finns but not to Finno-Ugrics.

    #367357

    Anonymous

    Balts seem to follow genetic continuoum between Slavs and Finns (not Finno-Ugrics, or anything from Asia, but Baltic Finns).

    Looking at haplogroup frequencies, highest by far are N1c1 and R1a (almost equal numbers), just short of Finland's N1c1 levels, though more than Russia (which has highest of Slavic nations) and either short of or equal to all Northern Slavic countries (including Slovenes), with very similair frequencies of R1b, I1 and I2b as Russia, Poland and Belarus.

    Therefore, their genetics can be compared geographically as being similar to Slavs with significant frequencies found also in Finns.

    #367358

    Anonymous

    Thank you for your information. That is very interesting. When you say Finno-Ugrics, I hear the Russians have much Finno-Ugric admixture, same with the Finns. So these Baltic Finns are something like the European component of the Finnish? My knowledge of genetics is very limited and I will sound ignorant. Alas, there is no shame in admitting it.

    Edit: Interestingly enough I read that Finns in Finland and Sami are genetically European, similar to Scandinavians. These Baltic-Finns were there thousands of years native in Europe, however the Finnic genetics in Baltic states are apparently close to Volga Finns. This is quite interesting to me because many people have viewed me as Asiatic. I do not think there is shame in such genetics.

    #367359

    Anonymous

    N1c1 is very ancient Eurasian haplogroup that stretched right from NE Europe deep into Asia, so this is why you will find high frequencies among Finns and at same time among Samoyedic peoples of Russia's Far East, even though racially they are like night and day.

    Remember that haplogroups do not reflect race, only origins. Race changes through admixture, origins do not.
    With Russians, case is little bit different than with Balts.

    NE Europe was originally Baltic Finnish (ancestors of Finns, Estonians and Karelians) and settled by IE invaders in waves centuries ago (including Baltic tribes, ancestors of Lithuanians, Latvians and Prussians), while Russians through their expansions came into contact with both Baltic Finns as well as Volga Finns (Mordvins, Permians and Mari), who both share similair genetics and languages (relatively), but are quite different people. Still, haplogroup frequencies of both Finnics combined are probably reason why it's so frequent in Russians also.

    Since Russians travelled even further into Asia, they also came into contact with Uralic tribes (including Ugric and Samoyedic peoples), but this were very sparsely populated tribes over enormous terrain, so I doubt they contributed to Russian genepool at all, unlike Finns.

    #367360

    Anonymous

    N1c1 is very ancient Eurasian haplogroup that stretched right from NE Europe deep into Asia, so this is why you will find high frequencies among Finns and at same time among Samoyedic peoples of Russia's Far East, even though racially they are like night and day.

    I agree with you. If two thousand years ago a people from Asia migrated to the Urals and then intermixed with Indo-Europeans, by present day the ancestry would be diluted. In the same sense if Indo-Europeans integrated with Asians then they would today also have very little trace of their original ancestry. Nevertheless the thought is interesting that some people may have Asiatic heritage in Europe. If the Volga Finns such as Mari had similar markers as those found in Balts it suggests to me that at some point they would have had a common ancestor if I understand you properly.

    Remember that haplogroups do not reflect race, only origins. Race changes through admixture, origins do not.
    With Russians, case is little bit different than with Balts.

    I would imagine this is because Russians had admixture with more Asian and Eurasian peoples seeing as they are closer to Asia and on the borders of Europe/Eurasia. Also their rule by the Tatar-Mongol may also have led to inter-mixing on some level.

    NE Europe was originally Baltic Finnish (ancestors of Finns, Estonians and Karelians) and settled by IE invaders in waves centuries ago (including Baltic tribes, ancestors of Lithuanians, Latvians and Prussians), while Russians through their expansions came into contact with both Baltic Finns as well as Volga Finns (Mordvins, Permians and Mari), who both share similair genetics and languages (relatively), but are quite different people. Still, haplogroup frequencies of both Finnics combined are probably reason why it's so frequent in Russians also.

    Remember though that the Estonians are not full Finns. They are actually very closely related to Balts but they simply speak a Finnic langugae. They are culturally Finnic. However they are not so much closely related to Baltic Finns as much as they are to Finno-Ugrics such as the Volga Finns as well.

    But if ancestry is so far away why do some Lithuanians and Russians have a slight Asiatic look?

    #367361

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I agree with you. If two thousand years ago a people from Asia migrated to the Urals and then intermixed with Indo-Europeans, by present day the ancestry would be diluted. In the same sense if Indo-Europeans integrated with Asians then they would today also have very little trace of their original ancestry.

    Since this haplogroups are paternal (passed through male line), marker frequencies would depend on frequencies of males taking female partners. Best example is seen actually in Central Asia. Genetically, they are very similar to Slavs, racially, they are total mongrels (Eurasians). It is assumed that R1a carriers (Scythians, Sarmatians, Tocharians, Saskha, Bactrians etc.) were male, who took local Mongoloid females.

    Nevertheless the thought is interesting that some people may have Asiatic heritage in Europe. If the Volga Finns such as Mari had similar markers as those found in Balts it suggests to me that at some point they would have had a common ancestor if I understand you properly.

    Indeed. Best way I think to show it is graphically:

    image

    Remember though that the Estonians are not full Finns. They are actually very closely related to Balts but they simply speak a Finnic langugae. They are culturally Finnic. However they are not so much closely related to Baltic Finns as much as they are to Finno-Ugrics such as the Volga Finns as well.

    Finns are not full Finnics also. ;) They have some Germanic (Norse especially) admixture.
    This is why I say there is genetic continuoum starting in Northern Poland and Belarus, through Baltics and NW Russia into Finland/Scandinavia.

    I would imagine this is because Russians had admixture with more Asian and Eurasian peoples seeing as they are closer to Asia and on the borders of Europe/Eurasia. Also their rule by the Tatar-Mongol may also have led to inter-mixing on some level.

    See below reply.

    But if ancestry is so far away why do some Lithuanians and Russians have a slight Asiatic look?

    Because NE Europe was originally inhabited by Ladogan racial types. This is ancient Upper Paleolithic type from before 40,000 years ago (when Caucasoid/Mongoloid racial split is assumed to have happened) that formed racial continuoum from far West Europe to Far East Asia, and have some Mongoloid features from incipient evolution to harsh climatic conditions and not admixture with Mongoloids.

    This was original Finnic tribe type. It was with mixing with Nordid IE invaders (Germanics, Slavs and Balts) that now there is blends like East-Baltid types or Neo-Danubian types, where one can still see elements of this ancient Ladogan type.

    It does not mean Russians and Lithuanians have Mongol ancestry.
    Some Russians might, but I think this is very rare. People overestimate racial mixing under foreign occupation IMO.

    #367362

    Anonymous

    I have some information on the subject which I'd post it here.

    There are different subclades in N1c1 haplogroup. N1c1 was known as N3 in old nomenclature. The particular subclades Lithuanians have are L550+ and L1025+  now being commonly called south Baltic.  It should be noted that Finns have their own common subclade of N1c1 haplogroup.

    Source: Genetic journey of the N1c haplogroup Pamjav H, Nemeth E, Feher T, Volgyi A

    Our results suggest that N1c-Tat mutation probably originated in South Siberia 8-9 thousand years ago and had spread through the Urals into the European part of present-day Russia. Its distribution is not fully correlated with the spread of Uralic languages. Turkic-speaking ethnic groups in South Siberia have high N1c-Tat presence and STR variance, while the N1c-L550 subgroup largely occurs among non-Uralic-speaking European populations. Only the European N1c-Tat (xL550) subgroup can be linked to the spread of Finno-Ugric languages from the Kama-Urals area ~6,000 years ago.
    The subgroup N1c-L550 cannot be considered Finno-Ugric origin and its carriers might have been assimilated by Indo-European groups, resulting in their spread across Europe in historical times with Vikings and Balto-Slavs.

     

    Source: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/n1c1/

    N1c1 haplogroup (defined by SNP M178+) is widely spread around the Baltic Sea, Volga region, the Urals and Siberia.
    The subclade N1c1-L1026 is typical for the Europe. Possible place of origin for L1026+ is westward from the Urals.
    Possible place of origin for L708+ is Siberia.
    The subclade N1c1-L550 is spread in South-Baltic region, Scandinavia, Iberia, British Isles.
    At low frequency (<1%) the haplogroup N1c1 is found in Spain, Portugal, Germany and British Isles.
    There are 5 main European subclades of haplogroup N1c1:
    1) North European Subclade (Z1936+,Z1935+)
    2) North-Baltic Subclade (VL29+,L1022+)
    3) South-Baltic Subclade (L550+,L1025+)
    4) Scandinavian II (L550+,L1025-)
    5) Ugric Subclade (Z1936+,L1034+)

    There are two scientific studies on Lithuanian DNA often cited in various resources:

    1. Y-chromosomal diversity suggests that Baltic males share common Finno-Ugric-speaking forefathers (2002) Laitinen V et al.
    2. Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians.(2004) Kasperaviciūte D et al

    Kasperaviciute sampled all regions proportionally unlike Laitien. According to her findings Lithuanians have R1a – 44.9%, N1c1- 36.7%.  The subclades of N1c1 which are not common to Finns. N1c1 is N3 in old nomenclature.
    R1a peaks among Dzukians to 61.8%.  Common R1a clades are Z280 and M458 + other clades with ratio 4:1. I’ve seen an a graphic from an unknowng source showing the distribution of R1a clades among different ethnicities.

    Table from Kasperaviciūte's study.

    [img width=700 height=304]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4341/lith.png”/>

    That’s only Y-DNA useful to know distant ancestry on paternal lineage.

    #367363

    Anonymous

    The study is based on Autosomal DNA data.

    Full text is free of charge.

    Nelis, M et al.  2009, 'Genetic structure of Europeans: a view from the North-East', PLoS One, vol. 4, no. 5, p. e5472.

    Abstract

    Using principal component (PC) analysis, we studied the genetic constitution of 3,112 individuals from Europe as portrayed by more than 270,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) genotyped with the Illumina Infinium platform. In cohorts where the sample size was >100, one hundred randomly chosen samples were used for analysis to minimize the sample size effect, resulting in a total of 1,564 samples. This analysis revealed that the genetic structure of the European population correlates closely with geography.

    Populations

    Estonia:
    The 1,090 Estonian samples were selected from 10,317 samples of the Estonian biobank (year 2005). Eighty samples (40 males and 40 females) were selected randomly, according to the place of birth, from each of 13 Estonian counties (Harju, Ida-Viru, Jõgeva, Järva, Lääne-Viru, Põlva, Pärnu, Rapla, Saaremaa, Tartu, Valga, Viljandi, Võru), and 50 samples (25 males and 25 females) were selected from the combined Hiiumaa and Läänemaa counties. Prior to collection approval from the Ethics Committee of the Estonian biobank was obtained.

    Latvia:
    The Latvian samples were selected from a population-based collection that is part of the Genome Database of Latvian Population, the national biobank. Participants were randomly selected from a group of individuals whose nationality and both of their parents’ nationalities were reported as Latvian. Participants were recruited through general practitioners and were required to be older than 18 years, without any chronic disorder; anthropometric measurements (including weight and stature), ethnic, social, environmental information and familial health status were acquired from self-reported questionnaire. The study protocol was approved by Central Medical Ethics Committee of Latvia.

    Lithuania:
    Peripheral blood samples were collected from unrelated individuals from six ethno-linguistic groups of Lithuania. Informed consent and information about birthplace, parents and grandparents were obtained from all donors. Approval was obtained from the Bioethics Committee of Lithuania prior to collection.

    Poland:
    The Polish sample was randomly selected from a population-based collection of adults (with sex ratio 1:1) representing Polish ethnic group from the West-Pomeranian region of Poland. The participants were randomly selected from the patient roles of participating family physicians.

    Russia:
    The Russian samples were obtained from healthy donors from the Andreapol district of the Tver region; all individuals were unrelated to each other and represented the native ethnic group of the region (i.e. they belonged to at least the third generation living in a particular geographic region).

    See supplementary table S1 for description of other populations

    [IMG]http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9725/mapjp.png”/>

    Methods

    Principal component (PC) and multidimensional scaling (MDS) analysis, pair-wise Fst index

    Multidimensional scaling plot of the studied European individuals. Larger resolution image.

    [img width=700 height=438]http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4220/lithpca.png”/>

    Pair-wise Fst between European samples. Larger resolution image

    [img width=700 height=296]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1486/fst.png”/>

    #367364

    Anonymous

    MDLP – Project Magnus Ducatus Lituaniae maintained by a Belarusian guy Vadim Verenich.

    The genetic distances between populations are calculated using autosomal data.

    Reference populations

    The reference population dataset of the calculator was assembled in PLINK by intersecting and thinning the samples from different data sources: HapMap 3 (the filtered dataset CEU,YRI,JPT,CHB), 1000genomes,Rasmussen et al. (2010),  HGDP (Stanford) (all populations),  Metspalu et al. (2011),Yunusbayev et al. (2011),Chaubey et al. (2010) etc. Furthermore i handpicked random 10 individuals from each European country panel in POPRES dataset, or the maximum number of individuals available otherwise, to select the POPRES European individuals to be included in our study. Finally, in order to evaluate the correlation between the modern and the ancient genetic diversity, i have also included ancient DNA genomic samples of Ötzi,(Keller et al.(2012)) Swedish Neolithic samples Gök4, Ajv52, Ajv70, Ire8, Ste7 (Skoglund et al. (2012)) and 2 La Braña individualsfrom the Mesolithic sites of the Iberian Peninsula (Sánchez-Quinto et al.(2012)). Then i added 90 samples of individuals-participants of our MDLP project.

    'Lithuanian' is sample obtained from a published scientific study. 'Lithuanian_V' is from Verenich’s collection. AFAIK 'Lithuanian_V' may not be fully Lithuanians.

    MDLP World 22 calculator output.

    Lithuanian

    [1,] "Lithuanian"      "0"     
    [2,] "Latvian"          "4.1049"
    [3,] "Belarusian"      "6.414" 
    [4,] "Lithuanian_V"    "6.5863"
    [5,] "Estonian"        "9.3718"
    [6,] "Russian"          "9.3856"
    [7,] "Russian_Center"  "13.0855"
    [8,] "Polish"          "14.1602"
    [9,] "Russian_South"    "16.2102"
    [10,] "Ukrainian"        "16.3927"
    [11,] "Polish_V"        "16.6634"
    [12,] "Russian_cossack"  "16.8196"
    [13,] "Ukrainian-East"  "17.2824"
    [14,] "Russian_V"        "17.3758"
    [15,] "Moldavian"        "18.318"
    [16,] "Belarusian_V"    "18.6497"
    [17,] "Sorb"            "19.4664"
    [18,] "Mordovian"        "20.7249"
    [19,] "Ukrainian-Center" "20.9294"
    [20,] "Russian_North"    "21.414"
    [21,] "Ukrainian_V"      "21.9504"
    [22,] "Ukrainian-West"  "23.2045"
    [23,] "Mordovian_V"      "23.3574"
    [24,] "Latvian_V"        "27.2621"
    [25,] "Slovakian"        "28.0973"
    [26,] "Czech"            "30.1712"
    [27,] "Vepsa"            "30.67" 
    [28,] "Croatian_V"      "30.9461"
    [29,] "Karelian"        "31.2418"
    [30,] "Inkeri"          "31.6994"

    Lithuanian_V

       
    [1,] "Lithuanian_V"    "0"     
    [2,] "Belarusian"      "4.0324"
    [3,] "Russian"          "4.4643"
    [4,] "Latvian"          "4.8877"
    [5,] "Estonian"        "6.5154"
    [6,] "Lithuanian"      "6.5863"
    [7,] "Russian_Center"  "7.6413"
    [8,] "Polish"          "8.1074"
    [9,] "Polish_V"        "10.7243"
    [10,] "Russian_South"    "10.9009"
    [11,] "Ukrainian"        "11.0036"
    [12,] "Russian_cossack"  "11.2721"
    [13,] "Ukrainian-East"  "11.9825"
    [14,] "Russian_V"        "12.0623"
    [15,] "Belarusian_V"    "12.5591"
    [16,] "Sorb"            "13.403"
    [17,] "Moldavian"        "14.2671"
    [18,] "Ukrainian-Center" "15.4311"
    [19,] "Ukrainian_V"      "16.5003"
    [20,] "Mordovian"        "16.5922"
    [21,] "Russian_North"    "17.3597"
    [22,] "Ukrainian-West"  "17.5821"
    [23,] "Mordovian_V"      "18.4068"
    [24,] "Slovakian"        "22.0009"
    [25,] "Latvian_V"        "22.7368"
    [26,] "Czech"            "24.0304"
    [27,] "Croatian_V"      "25.198"
    [28,] "Inkeri"          "27.7235"
    [29,] "German-North"    "27.9147"
    [30,] "Karelian"        "27.9215"

    #367365

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    N1c1 is very ancient Eurasian haplogroup that stretched right from NE Europe deep into Asia,

    The haplogroups N are from the Mongoloid race. You know what, living in Europe doesn't necessarily makes you looking "pure white".  The true Slavic haplogroup is R1a(1) which (as I've read) is dominant among Lusatian Serbs. Go figure.

    #367366

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    The haplogroups N are from the Mongoloid race. You know what, living in Europe doesn't necessarily makes you looking "pure white".  The true Slavic haplogroup is R1a(1) which (as I've read) is dominant among Lusatian Serbs. Go figure.

    The only Y-DNA haplogroup native to Europe is I. 20% of European male population has it. Other Y-DNA haplogroups were originated in Asia, Siberia, the middle east or Africa. R1a originated in Altai or central Asia, for example.

    In addition, 10% of Belarusians have N1c-L550 on average which is even higher in Hrodna, Viciebsk and Minsk regions. For example, Poland has less than 3% of N1c mostly found near Belarusian and Lithuanian borders. In fact, the frequency of particular clade N1c-L550 haplogroup is  higher in Belarus than in any other Slavic nation. Northern Russians mostly have N of a different clade.

    PS Belarusian past rulers from Gediminid dynasty were carriers of the haplogroup N originated from the Mongolian race : http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RussianNobilityDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

    #367367

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    The haplogroups N are from the Mongoloid race. You know what, living in Europe doesn't necessarily makes you looking "pure white".  The true Slavic haplogroup is R1a(1) which (as I've read) is dominant among Lusatian Serbs. Go figure.

    Haplogroups have nothing to do with race, and especially not ethnic groups.

    Yes, R1a features mostly in Slavs (East + West + Slovenes), but it also features in Central Asia (especially Kirgyzstan) and Indian Subcontinent in more or less same frequencies:

    image

    Same as how N spreads all the way from Northern Europe to Far Eastern Arctic Russia:

    image

    Does that mean that Finns, Saamis, Balts, Komi, Nenets and all those strange Mongoloid tribes of Northern Siberia are all one and same people? One example, Lithuanians have high amounts of N but look far more like Poles (where R1a is prominent) than some Nenets tribe living in Russia's Arctic.

    This haplogroups predate metaethnicities by tens of thousands of year and reflect nothing more than patrilinial lines. It has nothing to with race or metaethnicities. N3 features among Russians also, while I2b features highly in South Slavs, and even E1b1b features relatively frequently among Serbs and Bulgarians. Does this make them same as Ethiopians, where this haplogroups is also extremely common?

    It therefore only gives ideas about origins, but is certainly no racial or tribal marker.

    #370098

    Anonymous

    For future references

    Last year published study from Kushniarevich at al (2015)

    In Lithuanian population  (sample size 301)

    N1c1 ~40.5%
    R1a1 ~ 46.5% (quite high even many Slavic populations)

    It’s been discovered recently that Balts have their marker N1c1 (M2783) marker that is different to markers in Finno-Ugric populations.

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