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  • #341632
    Boris V.
    Boris V.
    Participant
    @dedushka

    Your thought’s about Macedonian – Greek name dispute?

    I personally would like to know do Macedonians consider themselves Slavic, or as a tribe of ancient Hellens?

    As far as from genetics one could understand that ancient Macedonians which belonged to Mediterranean population were living there, and we can see that there is an obvious Slavic R1a influx which is mirroring that there was Slavs that settled Macedonia. That too would mean that Macedonians today are a product of both Slavs and Hellens, but what puzzles me is you can’t be both, so what do Macedonians consider themselves, Slavs or Hellenic population?

    #349759

    Anonymous

    I believe Macedonians have right to use name and nationality. Obviously they have some ancient Macedonian descent, but at same time, some Slavic descent.

    Though I consider them Slavs culturally and linguistically. Racially, is not issue to be Slav, because Slavs differ from each other very much racially.

    #349760

    Anonymous

    Well, couldnt they just use adjective before the name Macedonia? I mean something like Slavic Macedonia for the so called FYROM and Greek (Helenic?) Mcedonia for the part of Macedonia within Greek borders.

    #349761

    Anonymous

    R. of Macedonia have every right to bear that name, while I cant see ethnic connection between ancient Macedonians and ancient Greeks, nor between modern Greeks and name Macedonia. Greek myth about Greek origin of Macedonia and Macedonians is just that-myth.

    #349762

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Greek myth about Greek origin of Macedonia and Macedonians is just that-myth.

    А зашто/почему су онда Македонци учествовали на олимпијским играма?
    A prečo su v tom pripadku Makedonci učestvovali na olimpijskim igrama?
    Then why did the Macedonians participate in the olimpic games?

    #349763

    Anonymous

    Well, couldnt they just use adjective before the name Macedonia? I mean something like Slavic Macedonia for the so called FYROM and Greek (Helenic?) Mcedonia for the part of Macedonia within Greek borders.

    I agree. Maybe Slavic republic of Macedonia?

    #349764

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Well, couldnt they just use adjective before the name Macedonia? I mean something like Slavic Macedonia for the so called FYROM and Greek (Helenic?) Mcedonia for the part of Macedonia within Greek borders.

    I agree. Maybe Slavic republic of Macedonia?

    Nice  :).

    #349765

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    R. of Macedonia have every right to bear that name, while I cant see ethnic connection between ancient Macedonians and ancient Greeks, nor between modern Greeks and name Macedonia. Greek myth about Greek origin of Macedonia and Macedonians is just that-myth.

    How is that when Slavs weren't even migrated yet to these territories in time of Macedonia and Alexander?  ???

    #349766

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Then why did the Macedonians participate in the olimpic games?

    Probably because of Argus origin of their kings, as Herodotus write.
    Still, they were barbarians to other Greeks.

    How is that when Slavs weren't even migrated yet to these territories in time of Macedonia and Alexander?

    I didn't mention Slavs, but anyway, Macedonians and other Balkan natives are ancestors of modern Slavs, Great migration of Slavs in 6th and 7th century to Balkan is hoax.
    Monk Nestor wrote: "ту бо ecть илюрикъ, егоже доходилъ апостолъ павелъ; ту бо бeша словене первое".
    Migration from south to north, not otherwise.

    #349767

    Anonymous

    Well dervan can't see ethnic connection between ancient macedonians and ancient greeks, in contrast to almost all scholars, alexander the great,the rest of ancient macedonians, Strabo, etc.

    Ancient greeks didn't like their northern part (macedonia) because of the occupation, and for this reason they denied their Greek identity.

    The modern state that you are talking about, in fact, has never been ethnically part of ancient macedonians or generally Greeks.Its inhabitants were Paionians who were called Barbarians by both macedonians and Greeks.

    this map

    image

    will help you, my friend.And don't tell me that you are right and the scholar that created this map is wrong (LOL).

    today, these people as far as i know consider themeselves non-slavs according to some videos in YT and some pages, they also do not consider themselves paionians or something similar, only macedonians.

    #349768

    Anonymous

    I think this whole name dispute actually has very shaky base.

    People of today's Macedonia by blood are same people as those who lived there thousands of years ago.
    They did not disappear. Therefore, I believe they have claim to heritage of ancestors who lived there before.
    Genetically, Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians are all similar, since they are descended from Paleo-Balkan tribes (Greeks, Illyrians, Macedonians and Thracians), who were all related and native to reigon.

    Fact that they speak Slavic language is because of Slavic conquering in 6th century (invited by Byzantium to fight Avars, according to Slavic migration theory), but that does not mean they magically changed into Slavs like those in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine or Slovakia, their blood and ancient heritage still remained with them.

    #349769

    Anonymous

    Fact that they speak Slavic language is because of Slavic conquering in 6th century (invited by Byzantium to fight Avars, according to Slavic migration theory), but that does not mean they magically changed into Slavs like those in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine or Slovakia, their blood and ancient heritage still remained with them.

    well said. Its very important to underline that ethnic categories are not related to genetics. Genes are not part  of  national characteristics cause not all member of the same nation share genetic factors. Some nations are more homogeneous than other but that is relativity. What I am trying to say is that if we discuss about whether Macedonians are Slavs or ancient Macedonians , we cant use blood as evidence but ethnic characteristics like language, culture that was made on that language, tradition etc.  Among modern Macedonians those characteristics are Slavic and that is it. If we say that because of blood Macedonians are not Slavs than we can easily break every group in Europe, because none is genetically homogeneous…Norwegians and Austrians are not the same, Russians and Serbs are not the same, French and Romanians are not the same etc., etc.

    @Wilkolak…this is not some correction or suggestion to your post, I was just saying what I think about ethnic nomenclature. ;) 

    #349770

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:
    Greek myth about Greek origin of Macedonia and Macedonians is just that-myth.

    А зашто/почему су онда Македонци учествовали на олимпијским играма?
    A prečo su v tom pripadku Makedonci učestvovali na olimpijskim igrama?
    Then why did the Macedonians participate in the olimpic games?

    The first Macedonian to participate in the Olympic Games was Alexander I, titled by the Athenians as a philhellenist. He had to prove that his ancestor came from Argos in Peloponnese, so that he can be considered partly Greek and thus allowed to participate to the Games. This was probably a political decision by the Greeks in order to gain Macedonian support in their war with Xerxes I…

    Quote:
    Ancient greeks didn't like their northern part (macedonia) because of the occupation, and for this reason they denied their Greek identity.

    The modern state that you are talking about, in fact, has never been ethnically part of ancient macedonians or generally Greeks.Its inhabitants were Paionians who were called Barbarians by both macedonians and Greeks.

    Paeonia became part of the Macedonian Empire in the IV century BC and since than this area is geographically inseparable part of Macedonia.
    This is the same period of the occupation you mentioned, and yet there was no resistance against it in Paeonia, unlike most parts of Greece. Maybe this means something… :)

    #349771

    Anonymous

    Collowrath….your avatar would be a perfect flag of Macedonia.

    #349772

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I didn't mention Slavs, but anyway, Macedonians and other Balkan natives are ancestors of modern Slavs, Great migration of Slavs in 6th and 7th century to Balkan is hoax.
    Monk Nestor wrote: "ту бо ecть илюрикъ, егоже доходилъ апостолъ павелъ; ту бо бeша словене первое".
    Migration from south to north, not otherwise.

    Could you give us a link to that quote, Dervan. I would appreciate it a lot.

    Quote:
    Collowrath….your avatar would be a perfect flag of Macedonia.

    Yeah, indeed.
    I'm glad the kolovrt is gaining much more respect and attention here lately. This symbol is present in our lands long, long before the (far-famed) Slavic occupation. This might be a good argument in Dervan's theory, by the way…

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