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  • #342301

    Anonymous

    Seems south slavic langauges have many turkcisms,germanisms,hungarisms and italianisms in language.

    Some common nouns does not have slavic origin word for it.

    Shoes – cipele – bašmaktopanka
    Boots – čizme – čerevikitopanka
    socks – čarapa – škarpletkiponožky
    bed – krevet – ližkoložko
    pillow – jastuk – poduškavankuš
    soap – sapun – milomydlo
    bag – torba – simkavrece
    blanket – deka – kovdrudeka

    Ukrainian would be in red
    Slovak in green 

    Croat word for any kind of foot wear would be obuća , slovenian obutev – related to slovak obuv, but word for shoes does not exist, no word for socks, bed, pillow (possible word dušek – inflatable , related do ukrainian poduška, no word for soap, slovakian vrece – related to south slavic vreća (cotton bag), blanket – deka same as slovakian from german Decke.

    As these would be some common everyday used words, question is why southslavic does not have slavic origin word?

    1. At time of arriving, south slavs simply did not use any kind of socks or footwear?
    2. Obviously bed and pillow in that time was SF, hay would be more proper (seno SK, sino, UA, sijeno HR)
    3. any pre soap would also be SF for south slavs
    4. same with blankets

    How many everyday common nouns in Slovakian/Ukrainian is not of slavic origin?

    Could we define by origin of words, possible knowledge of slavic tribe in early medieval times..

    Any ideas?

    #365432

    Anonymous

    Interesting topic, Harvat. I can't find any reasonable explanation for why it is. South Slavs were always perhaps located more on cross-roads of many invasions and that's why many German, Turkish, Hungarian and perhaps even ancient Avar words have found their way into South Slavic languages (even Italian into Slovenian and Croatian) and why some nouns may differ.

    Then again, many German words have found their way into Polish and Czech (probably also Slovak, I am not sure, you may have to ask Svaty).

    But anyway, regarding your list, as you can see, Slovak and Ukrainian have different words for nouns also. I throw in Polish examples also for comparison (in orange):

    Quote:
    Shoes – cipele – bašmaktopanka obuwie (which is "footwear" – I think there is no specific word actually for "shoe", so this is similar to Slovak).
    Boots – čizme – čerevikitopankabuty
    socks – čarapa – škarpletkiponožkyskarpety
    bed – krevet – ližkoložkołóżko
    pillow – jastuk – poduškavankušpoduszka
    soap – sapun – milomydlomydło
    bag – torba – simkavrecetorba
    blanket – deka – kovdrudekakoc

    Ukrainian would be in red
    Slovak in green  
    Polish in orange

    So as you can see, Polish, Slovak and Ukrainian all have different nouns also. Often it happens that they are same as each other, but as you can see, there are also differences. This is why I say it is difficult to tell why South Slavic has other nouns, when West and East Slavic also seem to have their own (though some overlap, obviously).

    #365433

    Anonymous

    Point was, that in time of arrival South Slavs did not had slavic words for it, as they did not have such objects, therefore no words for it. Therefore they took over foreign nouns for it. Other Slavs seems have words for it, the root of the words are slavic.

    Milo, Mydlo or sapun has no root word.

    vankuš, poduška has nothing even with intonation to jastuk, krevet also nothing with lyžko, or verb in croatian lijegati (to lay down) which would be root for Ližko,ložko, as the simply did not lay down into bed.

    Buty as you said is root word for obuv, obutev, obuća(croatian) literally "footware" – from verb obući (to wear)

    Most untacked slavic always seems to be Ukrainian.

    Root slavic words in this topic is intended to presume what south slavs had in everyday use, upon leaving other slavic tribes. Seems stated in that time was simply not known.

    Of course this is just theory

    #365434

    Anonymous

    Point was, that in time of arrival South Slavs did not had slavic words for it, as they did not have such objects, therefore no words for it. Therefore they took over foreign nouns for it. Other Slavs seems have words for it, the root of the words are slavic.

    Harvat i dissagree with this. Nonexistance of "native" words isnt always reason that certain people didnt use those things. There is no language group in Europe that kept all original words.

    Example: German word Grenze (border) comes from slavic Granica. Judging from your theory, German realms didnt have borders until they had first conntacts with Slavs.

    South Slavs have many turkish, german, hungarian, etc., influences becouse they had many contacts with those people and they absorbed many of their words and culture from them.

    #365435

    Anonymous

    For granica-grenze it could be understandable towards german tribes although it is common everday word used by common folks.

    Above stated are common words, that in that period should existed, words for everyday use, can not be easily replaced.

    Therefore, theory is upon leaving region of central Europe and seperating from rest of slavic, south slavs,possbile is simply did not use any of stated. All these words should be used in everyday talk, if used.

    Word sijeno, sino,seno, sjeno has not been replaced, also in eveyday use, nor sunce, sonce

    day – dan – deň – день

    night – noć – noc – ніч

    sun – sunce – slnko – сонце

    moon mjesec – mesiac – місяць

    cow – krava – krava – корова

    meat – meso – mäso – м'ясо

    and polish of course dzień
    noc
    słońce
    miesiąc
    mięso
    krowa
    pszenica
    bitwa
    siano

    wheet – pšenica –  pšenica – пшениця

    battle – bitka – bitka – бій

    #365436

    Anonymous

    For granica-grenze it could be understandable towards german tribes although it is common everday word used by common folks.

    I dont understand you. Do you want to say german stem-duchies didnt have borders?

    Code:
    Shoes – cipele – bašmak – topanka – obuwie (which is "footwear" – I think there is no specific word actually for "shoe", so this is similar to Slovak).
    Boots – čizme – čereviki – topanka – buty
    socks – čarapa – škarpletki – ponožky – skarpety
    bed – krevet – ližko – ložko – łóżko
    pillow – jastuk – poduška – vankuš – poduszka
    soap – sapun – milo – mydlo – mydło
    bag – torba – simka – vrece – torba
    blanket – deka – kovdru – deka – koc

    Ukrainian would be in red
    Slovak in green  
    Polish in orange

    I am not Serbo-croatian expert but couldnt shoe be opanke, opanak, opanci (depending on dialect)? Words opanke, opanci, opanak etc. to me is very ancient slavic word. I am quite sure many Serbo-croatian dialects still retain old words.

    I cant say much more about Serbian and Croatian words but i am Slovene and Slovene language is South Slavic;

    shoes –    čevlji
    Boots  –    škorenj
    socks  –    nogavice
    pillow  –    blazina
    soap   –    milo
    bag     –    torba, vreča
    blanket  – odeja, prevleka

    Sometimes certain people retain old words and other times they adopt foregin words but many times they also invent new words or change meaning of old words. In the end i want to say that other Slavs like we South Slavs also have many foregin words but also we must not forget dialects. Standard language and dialects can be two totaly different things.

    #365437

    Anonymous

    Good point Pohvec

    Opanak as such could be a word for obutev (croatian obuća) thou I can't really confirm that opanak is quite croatian word for "shoes"

    Opanak is mainly related to specific serbian shaped footware.

    Torba is turkish word,in same use in Slovenia as here. Škronji in Istrian dialect for boots, thou root of the word seems isn't slavic.
    Can't confirm also origin of word bičve (Istrian for socks)

    Most common used words and objects have same root or word. Mač (sword) is almost the same in any slavic lands.

    What puzzles me is that stated inital words are really not related to slavic as they should be.

    Point of this doubt is documentary in croatian tv about croatian kings, quite epic, but duobtfully realistic, in which we see South slavs in boots, on bed, clean and neat.

    Hrvatski kraljevi E01

    #365438

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    For granica-grenze it could be understandable towards german tribes although it is common everday word used by common folks.

    I dont understand you. Do you want to say german stem-duchies didnt have borders?

    @Pohvec ; Granica-grenze – I have no knowledge about influence of slavic words in german language

    Borders as we know them today did not existed in early medieval time or better to say they were not firm lines of controlled area. Divided by neutral zones on which both sides had no or not segnificant influence.

    #365439

    Anonymous

    I found this interesting, so I did a little research about the origin of these words used in South Slavic languages.

    Ukrainian would be in red
    Slovak in green 
    Polish in orange
    Slovene in blue
    Macedonian in purple

    Shoes – čevli, obuvki – cipele – čevlji bašmaktopanka obuwie

    I don't know where "cipele" comes from. "Obuvki" in Macedonian is rather a general term for footwear, but is also used for "shoes". "čevli" is most used instead. I see it's used in Slovenia also, but I can't find it's origin. "Opinok" is also used, but it means an ancient shoe. Anyway, I think we can agree that, in some form or another, there is a common Slavic origin for this kind of object.

    Boots – čizmi – čizme – škorenj čerevikitopankabuty

    The word "čizmi" probably was introduced to the South Slavs by he Turks. They use the same word.

    socks – čorapi – čarapa – nogavice škarpletkiponožkyskarpety

    The most common word for "sock" in South Slavic languages comes from the Turkish "çorap", but it's actually a loanword from ancient Chaldean word for "bag". Not ours! I guess none wore socks here before the 14 century. And also, the Ukrainian and Slovak words are derived from the word for "leg". Our peoples weren't so inventive. We call "nogavica" the part of the trousers where you put your leg in, though.

    bed – krevet – krevet – blazina ližkoložkołóżko

    "Krevet" comes from the Greek κρεβάτι. "Leglo" and "ležaj" are frequently used, although they are broader terms, they still can be compared to Ukrainian "ližko" e.g.

    pillow – pernica – jastuk – blazinapoduškavankušpoduszka

    Jastuk is purely Turkish. In Macedonia "pernica" is used. In Bulgaria it's "zglavnica". They sound pretty Slavic to me.

    soap – sapun – sapun – milomilomydlomydło

    I've found that the ultimate origin of this word is Proto-Indo-European "*soib-on". God know how our people started using it. BTW, Doesn't "milo" mean something nice and dear? :) 

    bag – torba, vrekja – torba – torba, vrečasimkavrecetorba

    "Torba" came into Turkish from the old Persian "tōbrak". There are many similarities between Persian, Sanskrit and Slavic, so it might be a common Slavic word also. Plus, it's used in Poland, and I doubt that Turkish had much influence on Polish. 

    blanket – kjebe, pokrivač – deka – odeja, prevlekakovdrudekakoc

    All these words for blanket were unknown to me. "Kjebe" is also used in Serbian and Croatian. "Pokrivač " comes obviously from "krie" – to hide.
    An interesting fact: the Hungarian word for blanket is "pokróc" – sounds Slavic.

    I think it might be a general conclusion that all these terms were introduced to our peoples at different stages of history. They had either to invent or loan new word for these objects.
    In some cases, different groups of people had to separately invent new words. They may differ, but it's the same Slavic primitives they are derived from.
    Of course, sometimes, the people just adopted the foreign words. Since South Slavs had contacts with many different peoples, there are many different loans into their languages.
    Still, for almost any of these loans there is an equivalent word with domestic origin, but these words are either considered archaic, or are used only dialectical. Croatian and Slovene linguistics pushed forward these words, and in my opinion, that is something that all other South Slavs should do. These loans should give their place to the domestic words, which might move closer our languages.

    #365440

    Anonymous

    I agree that loan words should be actively replaced in the standard language through words that do exist in our language or 'allslavisms' (vseslavenske reci), but are considered archaisms. This did happen in the Serbian language reform in the middle 19th century, but I have to say uneducated idiots still use turkish loan words in the press (about the common slang I don't even want to talk). I am also deeply disappointed how some of our people behave in relation to our language, treating it like mere 'shit', raping it with all kind of foreign crap.

    This I admire the Croats and their linguistic hygiene, eventhough they go over the top sometimes with neologism and the invented "new words".

    It is sad when one recalls that 150 years ago we used a language that was far more ours than this one tends to be today. Slavjanosrpski (used only by the intellectual elite and the clergy) marked "archaic and dead" was replaced by the 'narodni jezik' (old herzegovinian dialect), as the standard language.

    #365441

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I agree that loan words should be actively replaced in the standard language through words that do exist in our language or 'allslavisms' (vseslavenske reci), but are considered archaisms. This did happen in the Serbian language reform in the middle 19th century, but I have to say uneducated idiots still use turkish loan words in the press (about the common slang I don't even want to talk). I am also deeply disappointed how some of our people behave in relation to our language, treating it like mere 'shit', raping it with all kind of foreign crap.

    This I admire the Croats and their linguistic hygiene, eventhough they go over the top sometimes with neologism and the invented "new words".

    It is sad when one recalls that 150 years ago we used a language that was far more ours than this one tends to be today. Slavjanosrpski (used only by the intellectual elite and the clergy) marked "archaic and dead" was replaced by the 'narodni jezik' (old herzegovinian dialect), as the standard language.

    I agree, especially with the Bosnian language which has more Turkish/Persian/Arabic loanwords. And even more in our colloquialisms. for example, a common greeting would be "Selam" (Short for "Selam Alejkum", an Islamic greeting) or "Merhaba" (Turksih), whereas "zdravo" is used much less. We also use Turkish word for Devil; "Šejtan".

    #365442

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is sad when one recalls that 150 years ago we used a language that was far more ours than this one tends to be today. Slavjanosrpski (used only by the intellectual elite and the clergy) marked "archaic and dead" was replaced by the 'narodni jezik' (old herzegovinian dialect), as the standard language.

    Well can you show some examples of sentences of that language?
    You mean "Crkvenoslavenski"? Church Slavonic?

    #365443

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Good point Pohvec

    Opanak as such could be a word for obutev (croatian obuća) thou I can't really confirm that opanak is quite croatian word for "shoes"

    It is most definitely not. We don't use it.

    Quote:
    Can't confirm also origin of word bičve (Istrian for socks)

    Bičve(plural, bičva(singular) are also used in Dalmatia. I personally use them Thera are also already mentioned "ćarape"(turkish) and sokne(socks)-also foreign. First I thought that bičva is borrowed italian word, but actually I red it is old Croat word.

    #365444

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well can you show some examples of sentences of that language?
    You mean "Crkvenoslavenski"? Church Slavonic?

    Hm i dont know what he meant but you wont be getting any answer's from him becouse of reasons unknown to me he stoped posting which is sad becouse he was good thread maker beside's occasional flamewar's. :)

    #365445

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Hm i dont know what he meant but you wont be getting any answer's from him becouse of reasons unknown to me he stoped posting which is sad becouse he was good thread maker beside's occasional flamewar's. :)

    " The Slavonic-Serbian language (славяносербскій / slavjanoserbskij or словенскій slovenskij; Serbian: славеносрпски / slavenosrpski) is a form of the Serbian language which was used, exclusively as a written language (no one ever actually spoke it), at the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century, predominantly by Serbian writers in Vojvodina and other parts of the Habsburg Monarchy. As such, it was also occasionally used in Montenegro and liberated Serbia in the early stages.

    Slavoserbian was Serbian of a somewhat educated merchant class under heavy influence of the Church Slavonic language and the Russian language of that time. "

    " Characteristics

    Taking a sentence from Zaharije Orfelin's Славеносербски магазин (The Slavonic-Serbian Magazine) as an example of the language could be useful:“ Весьма бы мені пріскорбно было, ако бі я кадгод чуо, что ты, мой сыне, упао у пянство, роскошь, безчініе, і непотребное жітіе ”

    (Latin: "Veśma by meni priskorbno bylo, ako bi ja kadgod čuo, čto ty, moj syne, upao u pianstvo, roskoš', bezčinie, i nepotrebnoe žitie").

    Such a sentence shows that the language preserves old Slavic forms – thereby being similar to Russian, the most conservative of the Slavic languages – (čto instead of što), (roskoš' instead of raskoš), as well as the appearance of the letter –t in the third person plural of the present tense (oni mogut' instead of oni mogu). Furthermore, this language had no defined grammar, and it was used in a form that suited whoever used it. "

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