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  • #359753

    Anonymous
    Extint Roman church with gaveyard from the 11th century in a village Podhorany-Sokolníky, close to the town Nitra

    In August 1096 started on 1st Crusade, which was attended primarily lower feudal lords. They tried to acquire dominions in the East and to gain influence and wealth. Expedition consisted of four smaller expeditions, which came from several cities in Europe. Each group walked over land from spring 1096 through the Principality of Nitra, within a new state in Central Europe – Hungary. One turbulent current that passed around Trenčín from Moravia to Slovakia, where the loot was then defeated in the near Nitra in June. Expeditions attended together 330 000 Crusaders. This figure is confirmed by the Bishop of Nitra Viliam Judák, who wrote that there was killed about 4,000 people and church property was being destroyed.

    Church property was being destroyed because around Nitra were built Orthodox churches in which was Mass in the old Slovak language in 1085. At that time, monks came to Nitra from the canceled Sázava monastery of Bohemia.

    This National monument is probably a relic of significant building that was built in the 11th century after passing the participants 1st crusade. Based on a small base next to probe the original church, it is likely that within this church was formerly another important object. In all three parts of the church are noticeably used travertine blocks. Archaeological research was terminated in 1966, but this does not address those structural elements or remnants of stone fences on the dimensions of 45 x 90 meters. According to the source " Nitra – Príspevky k najstarším dejinám mesta, AÚ SAV Nitra 1993", increased apse and masonry walls corresponding to the higher level of social environment and functional significance. The ruins of the church. Saint Michael, correspond to such assessment.

    In 2005, the Union of Pensioners of Slovakia – Basic Organization Podhorany leased this object with a term of 16 years. In 2007 they made a larger adjustment, which included cleaning the object from plants, alignment of the terrain, road repair and installation of sign of the National monument.

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    Source: http://www.geocaching.com

    My note: The churches in that time were very small, because they served to monks and nobility mostly. The fact that Crusaders plundered Principality of Nitra (Slovakia) and Moravia – thus the core areas of previous state of Magna Moravia, means that the Roman pope and Western European states (namely the Holy Roman Empire) considered these lands to be their enemies. And indeed, Great Moravia with its greatest King Svätopluk the I who defeated Franks several times, was the enemy of Franks/Germans.
    First Christian churches in Slovakia were Orthodox. Complete Romanization – Latinization of the Church in Hungarian kingdom started in the 13th century. The remnants of the Orthodox Church in Slovakia can be seen in the east Slovakia among Greek Catholic Rusyns and Slovaks.

    #359754

    Anonymous

    oh who is author of that text :)

    Orthodox churches in which was Mass in the old Slovak language

    first churches in Slovakia were Orthodox

    but orthodox church as we know it didnt exist back then… what we know today as catholic and orthodox was one united church
    old slovak language? not rather old church slavic, or church slavic? i think they are based on dialect from thessaloniki area and old bulgarian, respectively :)
    and there isnt mass in orthodox churches

    #359755

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    oh who is author of that text :)

    but orthodox church as we know it didnt exist back then… what we know today as catholic and orthodox was one united church
    old slovak language? not rather old church slavic, or church slavic? i think they are based on dialect from thessaloniki area and old bulgarian, respectively :)
    and there isnt mass in orthodox churches

    In 1085 there was orthodox Churhch. Great Schism – 1054. Altough in time of Slavic apostols there was great strife among Constantiople (which Patriarch sent Saint Brothers) and Rome (which Pope eventualy forbade Slavic liturgies.) Old bulgarian was turkic not Slavic language. Bulgarians were not still assimliated in that name. Boris, Persijam, Kubrat, Asparuh – not Slavic names (I do not enter wheather they were Turkic or Iranian, but their language and names were Turkic).
    My point is autor is imprecise, but not necessarily wrong.

    #359756

    Anonymous

    but first churches in slovakia werent orthodox, that was in 9th century, when church was still united and in the same century german bishop wiching expelled eastern rite clergy from great moravia.
    they were of eastern rite but not orthodox, and the area must have been latinized already in 11th century.

    first benedictine (western rite) monks were expelled from sazava in 1096 not 1085, it was also year when a group of crusaders passed through that land.
    the church wasnt destroyed, it stood until around 18th century. even the table at photo implies that – it speaks of baroque reconstruction :)
    it was western rite church, roman catholic

    i see that text was ran through translator or what… and 330 000 crusaders? i rather wont believe that number :D

    #359757

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    but first churches in slovakia werent orthodox, that was in 9th century, when church was still united and in the same century german bishop wiching expelled eastern rite clergy from great moravia.
    they were of eastern rite but not orthodox, and the area must have been latinized already in 11th century.

    There were still difference between two parts and open schisma in that time. Nitria was different teritory from Moravia, it was closer to Eastern Orthodox influences from Rus' and it was possible that some isolated Orthodox communities existed (330 000 crusaders is exageration), nevertheless dont forget that in rest of Hungary existed Orthodoxy. Saint Stephen built Greek monastery for his daugther-in-law. Bishoprics under jurisdiction of Constantinople existed untill XIV century.

    #359758

    Anonymous

    but dalibor those were hundreds of km from nitra :)
    and nitra was part of great moravia
    moravia+nitra=g. mor.

    of course there were enmities already in 9th century… but it was still united orthodox and catholic, apostolic, only church (as in creed)

    #359759

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    but dalibor those were hundreds of km from nitra :)
    and nitra was part of great moravia
    moravia+nitra=g. mor.

    of course there were enmities already in 9th century… but it was still united orthodox and catholic, apostolic, only church (as in creed)

    Well until see mor sources, I would refrain from judging. But story is not unbelievable, except old slovak and 330 000.

    #359760

    Anonymous

    Orthodox – Catholic division indeed did not exist in 9th ct. There might have been some disagreements between Constantinople and Rome but they were mostly not about dogma, rather political affairs. Mission of Cyril and Methodius was confirmed by pope after they were examined in dogmatic matters and defended their teaching which was found true to proper dogma. Methodius was appointed archbishop by pope. Only significant difference was in language: Slavic versus Latin. Former was forbidden, but only after death of Methodius.

    As for language, it was not called Old Church Slavonic. That is name invented only later. Authentic name for that language was Slovenski jezik (словѣ́ньскъ).

    Crusaders ravaged whole territory of Kingdom of Hungary, as they did in other lands through which they passed. I doubt it was some deliberate policy of Frankish kings acting on memory of Great Moravian competitor which did not existed for some 200 years anymore. Rather it was lack of proper organization, supply and discipline on part of Crusaders themselves. Of course ethnic differences and quarrels sure might played some role as well.

    #359761

    Anonymous

    It quite some time ago but as i recall from one historic book about Crusaders most of these groups were rather un-organised bunch. :D One group of Crusaders for example ended up Crusade in slaughter of Je*ws in various German lands. Once they got enough of J*ew money they ended their Crusader quest. Then you had some groups of poorely equiped Crusaders slaughtered like lamb in area of Anatolia (i think). I would have to check book about details however.

    Overal all medieval armies were rather loosely organised. Medieval armies didn't have much logistic support so they always relied on plunder for food, etc. but ofc. main motivation of soliders to fight for their rulers wasn't idea of nationhood but silver and gold. So naturally they raided anyone as long as there was great opurtunity to get profit.

    #359762

    Anonymous

    About Crusades and Slavs. It is said, that Polish duke, Leszek Biały, refused his participation in the crusade, saying in his letter to the Pope, that in the Holy Land isn't any mead nor beer, and that without them Polish knights cannot fight :)

    It's quite well-known anecdote in Poland.

    #359763

    Anonymous

    LMAO all hail polish knights  ;D

    #359764

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    About Crusades and Slavs. It is said, that Polish duke, Leszek Biały, refused his participation in the crusade, saying in his letter to the Pope, that in the Holy Land isn't any mead nor beer, and that without them Polish knights cannot fight :)

    It's quite well-known anecdote in Poland.

    Well he was quite a clever fella then. :D Had those drunkard Poles come all Holy land would be Catholic. ;D

    #359765

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well he was quite a clever fella then. :D Had those drunkard Poles come all Holy land would be Catholic. ;D

    Luckily for Saracens They were busy turning Ukraine and Bielorusia in to proper pappists ;)

    #359766

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Luckily for Saracens They were busy turning Ukraine and Bielorusia in to proper pappists ;)

    Somehow they failed. :) I guess they were even more busy extracting wealth up there! ;D

    #359767

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    As for language, it was not called Old Church Slavonic. That is name invented only later. Authentic name for that language was Slovenski jezik (словѣ́ньскъ).

    Distinction Old Church Slavonic/Church Slavonic is introduced among Linguists to diferentiate X and XVI century dialects of it.

    PS, in IX century there was schism between patriarcch Photius who sent saint Borthers and successive popes. It was healed under Pope John VIII. Saint borthers were able to stay in friendly terms with both. Also, there was no sharp dispute over dogmatic matters, altough, there was controversy over Filioque, and there was difference in ritual, Cyrill and Methodius introduced Byzantine rite.

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