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- November 10, 2010 at 2:30 pm #341633
Before the break-up of the Soviet Union, South Ossetia operated as the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast, an autonomous region within the Georgian SSR. A military conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia broke out in January 1991 when Georgia sent troops to subdue a South Ossetian separatist movement. The separatists were helped by former Soviet military units, who by now had come under Russian command. Estimates of deaths in this fighting exceed 2,000 people. During the war several atrocities occurred on both sides. Approximately 100,000 Ossetians fled Georgia and South Ossetia, while 23,000 Georgians left South Ossetia. The war resulted in South Ossetia, which had a Georgian ethnic minority of around 29% of the total population of 98,500 in 1989, breaking away from Georgia and gaining de facto independence. After the Sochi agreement in 1992, Tskhinvali was isolated from the Georgian territory around it and Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian peacekeepers were stationed in South Ossetia under the Joint Control Commission's (JCC) mandate of demilitarisation. The 1992 ceasefire also defined both a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and a security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories. This situation was mirrored in Abkhazia, an Autonomous Republic within Georgia in the USSR, where the Abkhazian minority seceded from Georgia in a war in the early 1990s. Similar to South Ossetia, most of Abkhazia was controlled by an unrecognised government, while Georgia controlled other parts. In May 2008, there were about 2,000 Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia, and about 1,000 Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia under the JCC's mandate.
The conflict remained frozen until 2003 when Mikheil Saakashvili came to power in Georgia's Rose Revolution, which ousted president Eduard Shevardnadze. In the years that followed, Saakashvili's government pushed a programme to strengthen failing state institutions, including security and military, created "passably democratic institutions" and implemented what many[quantify] viewed as a pro-US foreign policy. One of Saakashvili's main goals has been Georgian NATO membership, which Russia opposes. This has been one of the main stumbling blocks in Georgia-Russia relations. In 2007, Georgia spent 6% of GDP on its military and had the highest average growth rate of military spending in the world. In 2008, Georgia's defence budget was $1bn, a third of all government spending. Restoring South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgian control has been seen as a top-priority goal of Saakashvili since he came to power. Opposition members have criticised Saakashvili of having authoritarian tendencies. During Saakashvili's rule, human rights organizations such as Freedom House downgraded Georgia's democracy ranking. The Freedom House ranking moved lower than it was under President Eduard Shevardnadze.
Emboldened by the success in restoring control in Adjara in early 2004, the Georgian government launched a push to retake South Ossetia, sending 300 special task-force fighters into the territory. Georgia stated that the operation aimed to combat smuggling, but JCC participants branded the move as a breach of the Sochi agreement of 1992. Intense fighting took place between Georgian forces and South Ossetian militia between 8 and 19 August 2004. According to researcher Sergei Markedonov, the brief war in 2004 was a turning point for Russian policy in the region: Russia, which had previously aimed only to preserve the status-quo, now felt that the security of the whole Caucasus depended on the situation in South Ossetia, and took the side of the self-proclaimed republic. In 2006 Georgia sent police and security forces to the Kodori Gorge in eastern Abkhazia, when a local militia leader there had rebelled against the Georgian authorities. The presence of Georgian forces in the Kodori Gorge continued until the war in 2008.
In the 2006 South Ossetian independence referendum, 99% of those voting supported full independence. Simultaneously, ethnic Georgians voted just as emphatically to stay with Tbilisi in a referendum among the region's ethnic Georgians. Georgia accused Russia of the annexation of its internationally recognised territory and of installing a puppet government led by Eduard Kokoity and by several officials who had previously served in the Russian FSB and in the Army. From 2004 to 2008, Georgia has repeatedly proposed broad autonomy for Abkhazia and South Ossetia within the unified Georgian state, but the proposals have been rejected by the secessionist authorities, who demanded full independence for the territory. In 2006, the Georgian government set up what Russians said was a puppet government led by the former South Ossetian prime minister Dmitry Sanakoyev and granted to it a status of a provisional administration, alarming Tskhinvali and Moscow. In what Sergei Markedonov has described as the culmination of Georgian "unfreezing" policy, the control of the Georgian peacekeeping battalion was transferred from the joint command of the peacekeeping forces to the Georgian Defence Ministry.
In 1989, Ossetians accounted for around 60 percent, Georgians 20 percent, Armenians 10 percent and Russians 5 percent of the population of South Ossetia. As of 2009 about 87.5% of the population of South Ossetia have acquired Russian citizenship, as a result of being Soviet Citizens (Russia extended citizenship to most USSR citizens, as it was seen as a successor state to the USSR and Russia assumed USSR's UN "Veto Seat"). Additionally, 71% of all Ossetians were living in Russia, most of them just across the Roki Tunnel in North Ossetia, and had family members in South Ossetia. From the viewpoint of Russian constitutional law, the legal position of Russian passport holders in South Ossetia is the same as that of Russian citizens living in Russia. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that he would "protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are". According to an EU report, this position is inconsistent with international law, which considers the vast majority of purportedly naturalised persons as not Russian citizens. According to Reuters, prior to the war Russia was supplying two thirds of South Ossetia's annual budget, and Russia's state-controlled gas giant Gazprom was building new gas pipelines and infrastructure worth hundreds of millions of dollars to supply South Ossetian cities with energy. Moreover, Russian officials already had de facto control over South Ossetia's institutions, including security institutions and security forces, and South Ossetia's de facto government was largely staffed with Russian representatives and South Ossetians with Russian passports who had previously worked in equivalent government positions in Russia. In mid-April, 2008, the Russian Foreign Ministry announced that Russian PM Vladimir Putin had given instructions to the federal government whereby Russia would pursue economic, diplomatic, and administrative relations with Abkhazia and South Ossetia as with the subjects of Russia. When President Saakashvili was re-elected in early 2008, he promised to bring the breakaway regions back under Georgian control.
The U.S. Ambassador John Tefft addresses Georgian graduates of the SSOP in June 2007.
BTC pipeline (green) and planned Nabucco gas pipeline (tangerine).
Georgia maintained a close relationship with the G.W. Bush administration of the United States of America. In 2002, the USA started the Georgia Train and Equip Programme to arm and train the Georgian military, and, in 2005, a Georgia Sustainment and Stability Operations Programme to broaden capabilities of the Georgian armed forces. These programmes involved training by the United States Army Special Forces, United States Marine Corps, and military advisors personnel.
Although Georgia has no significant oil or gas reserves of its own, its territory hosts part of the important Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan pipeline transit route that supplies western and central Europe. The pipeline, supplied by oil from Azerbaijan's Azeri-Chirag-Guneshli oil field transports 1 million barrels (160,000 m3) of oil per day. It has been a key factor for the United States' support for Georgia, allowing the West to reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil while bypassing Russia and Iran.
Russian general mobilisation:
[img width=500 height=281]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44904000/jpg/_44904292_9ae5052a-0a18-4851-8863-798c8fa762c2.jpg”/>
What really happened you ask?:December 8, 2010 at 9:20 am #349813
I think that Russia should not be wasting its time with some primitive mountain peoples. They have other issues to deal with in Russia itself (like spending tax money on underdeveloped non-Slavic/European populated regions in Siberia and Far East). Russia is like too little butter spread over too much bread. It should focus on old regions of Novgorod and ancient Kievan Rus, true Russia.
But anyway, regarding this war, it's obvious Georgia started it. Russia did right thing by stepping in, but two bad things: 1) They were too heavy handed against Georgian civilians – there is no need for this and 2) They have basically assimilated two more wild mountain peoples into Russia by giving them passports and getting too involved in their affairs. Russia should isolate itself from Caucasus.December 8, 2010 at 9:26 am #349814
AnonymousQuote:I think that Russia should not be wasting its time with some primitive mountain peoples. They have other issues to deal with in Russia itself (like spending tax money on underdeveloped non-Slavic/European populated regions in Siberia and Far East). Russia is like too little butter spread over too much bread. It should focus on old regions of Novgorod and ancient Kievan Rus, true Russia.
But anyway, regarding this war, it's obvious Georgia started it. Russia did right thing by stepping in, but two bad things: 1) They were too heavy handed against Georgian civilians – there is no need for this and 2) They have basically assimilated two more wild mountain peoples into Russia by giving them passports and getting too involved in their affairs. Russia should isolate itself from Caucasus.
Eh i think Siberia is heavily "eskimo" population anyway, don't know the percentages thoughtDecember 8, 2010 at 9:52 am #349815
Exactly, I mean if it weren't for Russians, they would not understand concepts like plumbing, electricity, construction and other basic facets of European civilization that this eskimos and Russo-Eskimo mongrels now have better life thanks to.
As bad as Russian imperialism has been in history, they are truly one of most charitable people, developing regions/nations that previously lived in tents made from animal skins and ate raw meat.July 19, 2012 at 5:50 am #349816
It's too old thread without Russian comments though. So I hope nobody wouldn't be against its "revitalization".
I support kinda conspiracy point of view about that useless war: all sides of conflict got profit from those events. Everyone from eurasian d****eads to yankee dumba**es tried to make PR on the blood:
Degenerative temporary president of Russia increased his rating after "small victorious war" and "protection of Russian citizens" and the destructive military reform got public support. Saakashvili had solved his internal politician issues. I have not heard about serious opposition rallies in Georgia after those days, it seems like primitive georgian society united around their American puppet against the foreign aggression. It's not necessary to talk that leaders of new quasi-states are really happy today under the stream of Russian budget money.
Motivation of conflict isn't really important, there'll exist intertribal wars while kavkazians inhabite that region. There're many evidences that both sides ("Russian" and Georgian) prepared to the conflict. So statements about only peaceful position of certain conflict's side and unmotivated aggression of another side show partiality and political bias of their authors. Russian number "1500" of Osetian victims is most likely a fake as well as Georgian data about Russian losses. I feel sorry only for killed Russian soldiers and peacekeepers who really were a cannon fodder in the war. It's horrible to dead in 19 years under fire of georgian savages only because your rulers want your death as a formal reason to start the war.
I really think it's a fatal mistake for Russia to spend all money and forces for inferior regions of caucasus and get the black occupation back. Moreover it should be called "crime against Russian folk", the word "mistake" isn't a very correct definition for that.
Other polar point of view in this thread about recovering of ancient Novgorod republic's borders is too naive and isn't related with real life in Russia. Most likely, Wilko didn't know about any residents of Siberia except eskimo The majority of mongrels in Siberia come from European Russia as well as all economic problems.July 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm #349817
Why did Russia get involved for South Ossetia? Are they Russians, or Slavic?July 19, 2012 at 1:50 pm #349818
Shakashvilli comes off as a hot head and big mouth. Colin Powell warned him to never provoke war over south ossetia. I'm sure he though that the USA would bail him out if he got into trouble . I'm glad none of my tax dollars went to save his ass.July 19, 2012 at 2:01 pm #349819
AnonymousQuote:Why did Russia get involved for South Ossetia? Are they Russians, or Slavic?
They are not Slavic nor whites, but they're close relatives for North Osetians living in the eponymous Northern Caucasian republic of Russia and they hate Georgians. Russia used this fact to give citizenship for South Osetians. Abkhazians have not such close relatives among Northern Caucasians and they're muslims. Theoretically, Abkhazia and Ossetia have strategically advantageous location, their territory might allow to control caucasian pipelines, and there may be relocated Russian fleet from Crimea.July 19, 2012 at 2:11 pm #349820
AnonymousQuote:They are not Slavic nor whites, but they're close relatives for North Osetians living in the eponymous Northern Caucasian republic of Russia and they hate Georgians. Russia used this fact to give citizenship for South Osetians. Abkhazians have not such close relatives among Northern Caucasians and they're muslims. Theoretically, Abkhazia and Ossetia have strategically advantageous location, their territory might allow to control caucasian pipelines, and there may be relocated Russian fleet from Crimea.
So they got involved for money?July 19, 2012 at 2:15 pm #349821
AnonymousQuote:Other polar point of view in this thread about recovering of ancient Novgorod republic's borders is too naive and isn't related with real life in Russia. Most likely, Wilko didn't know about any residents of Siberia except eskimo The majority of mongrels in Siberia come from European Russia as well as all economic problems.
Moscow might have problems with Central Asian imigrants, but that is still largest slavic city in world. On other hand, first principality to spread in Sibir was exactly Novgorod
This was Novgorod Republic:
And since lot people here does not acctually know how Kievan Rus' acctually looked like, here it is (You could see place of future Moscow was part of Kievan Rus'):
[img height=260]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Rus-1015-1113.png”/>Quote:Why did Russia get involved for South Ossetia? Are they Russians, or Slavic?
Not that I support involvment of Russia there, but why the hell US and her minions involved in Kosovo. shiptars are American citizens?What they had to do in Libiya, Iraq, Vietnam? Somebody requested their presence or what? What was interess of Australia in Vietnam?Quote:So they got involved for money?
For international prestige.
Aren't Abkhazians mostly Christians? But anyway, they are closely related to Georgians.July 19, 2012 at 2:52 pm #349822
AnonymousQuote:So they got involved for money?
It's hard to say about money, rather it's explained by geopolitical goals. In any case we have multibillion-dollar losses.Quote:PS Aren't Abkhazians mostly Christians? But anyway, they are closely related to Georgians.
Yes, you're correct, they're not only muslims, probably I thought about adjarians when I wrote my last post. This issue is too complicated and confused:
Как показали проведенные Институтом востоковедения РАН в 1994-1998 годах полевые исследования в Абхазии, декларируемая абхазами принадлежность к христианам или мусульманам является совершенно формальной. Она остается данью традиции и свидетельствует лишь о том, приверженцами какой из этих религий когда-то считались их предки (вынужденные в прошлом под давлением обстоятельств креститься, либо принимать ислам, но в действительности сохранявшие прежнюю веру).
Современные “христиане-абхазы” не посещают церкви (или посещают их крайне редко), не совершают обряда причастия, не соблюдают никаких постов, не интересуются основами вероучения, не читают Библии. “Мусульмане-абхазы” употребляют в пищу свинину, спиртные напитки, не совершают обрезания (даже считают это постыдным и недостойным мужчины), не читают Корана и совершенно не интересуются исламом. Поэтому почти полное отсутствие у абхазов мировоззренческих разногласий и бытовых различий между людьми, формально относящими себя к христианам и мусульманам, является вполне закономерным. Некоторые отличия наблюдаются в похоронной обрядности и в процедуре религиозных праздников, которые, впрочем, совершенно утратили свое первоначальное содержание. Если праздник отмечают абхазские христиане, в нем с удовольствием принимают участие мусульмане, и наоборот. В семьях, объединяющих представителей различных конфессий, религиозные праздники христиан и мусульман чаще всего празднуются совместно. Само празднование в большинстве случаев сводится к застолью: готовятся определенные блюда и приглашаются к столу родственники, соседи и друзья.
In fact they're simply kavkazians, it describes everything Their place is not in Russia.July 19, 2012 at 2:59 pm #349823
Aren't Ossetians pro-Russian?July 19, 2012 at 3:09 pm #349824
AnonymousQuote:Aren't Ossetians pro-Russian?
Yes, they hate Georgians more than Russians. Altough it is doubtfull how benefitial this intervention was for Russia.July 19, 2012 at 3:13 pm #349825
AnonymousQuote:Yes, they hate Georgians more than Russians. Altough it is doubtfull how benefitial this intervention was for Russia.
Sibiryak said something about pipelines and strategic position. Considering that it must be very beneficial.July 19, 2012 at 3:21 pm #349826
AnonymousQuote:Sibiryak said something about pipelines and strategic position. Considering that it must be very beneficial.
Probably i incorrectly formulated this idea. Some oil-transport pipelines like Nabukko can pass across Georgian territory. In the case of serious war they could be easily destroyed from Osetian territory and Europe would depends on Russian mineral resources again, putinoids are so obsessed with Russian role of "energy superpower". I have to say that it's not mine sick idea, I've met this version in many sources like one of the principal reasons of that war.
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