Viewing 11 posts - 16 through 26 (of 26 total)
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  • #409459

    Anonymous

    My parents lived and married in Madrid , when Franco was in power.  Spain was safer and the gitanos didn't cause problems.  Spain was also poorer and news was heavily censored.  The Roman Catholic church had a hold on public education and well.  I was there when el Caudillo was alive and after his passing.  Spain is more chaotic but the toilet paper is much better.

    #409460

    Anonymous

    This sounds like a classic case of 'pick your poison.'

    #409461

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    If they indeed joined the Spanish Blue Division, I'd be really interested in reading more about them. I'm curious how they felt, fighting alongside the Axis against their Russian countrymen. (And, knowing how the Axis troops often behaved to Russian civilians, it only makes the split-loyalties thing more interesting).

    Since you're so curious, I have to remember you that they were Soviet countrymen. The only military forces  called "Russian" fought on the Axis side. This is my small but important correction to your terminology, other part of message I'm not going to comment, else I'll be attacked by pro-Soviet majority of site members.

    #409462

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Since you're so curious, I have to remember you that they were Soviet countrymen. The only military forces  called "Russian" fought on the Axis side. This is my small but important correction to your terminology, other part of message I'm not going to comment, else I'll be attacked by pro-Soviet majority of site members.

    I am interested to know your opinion about those who fought for the Germans. Do you not feel it was a mistake to fight for German National Socialists who wanted to enslave and kill Slavs, especially Russians?

    #409463

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I am interested to know your opinion about those who fought for the Germans. Do you not feel it was a mistake to fight for German National Socialists

    They fought not for Germans, but fo Russians, against bloody communist regime, by using German military support though. I do not see any mistake here.

    who wanted to enslave and kill Slavs, especially Russians?

    Do you have any reliable profs about extermination of all Slavs and "especially Russians"? I mean the scans of legally valid documents, not books, "plans" and fake quotes puclicated after the war.

    #409464

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Do you have any reliable profs about extermination of all Slavs and "especially Russians"? I mean the scans of legally valid documents, not books, "plans" and fake quotes puclicated after the war.

    Generalplanost?

    [img width=445 height=700]http://www.1000dokumente.de/dokumente/scan/jpg100/0138_gpo_01.jpg” />

    You can even read it page by page here:http://www.1000dokumente.de/index.html?c=dokument_de&dokument=0138_gpo&object=facsimile&l=de

    #409465

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I'm curious how they felt, fighting alongside the Axis against their Russian countrymen. (And, knowing how the Axis troops often behaved to Russian civilians, it only makes the split-loyalties thing more interesting).

    But they did know how behave communists in USSR against Russians. Let me demonstrate on of the best examples of communist regime:

    image

    Vasili Mikhailovich Blokhin (January 7, 1895 – February 3, 1955) was a Soviet Major-General who served as the chief executioner of the Stalinist NKVD under the administrations of Genrikh Yagoda, Nikolai Yezhov and Lavrenty Beria (after their respective falls from power, Yagoda and Yezhov were executed by Blokhin himself). Hand-picked for the position by Joseph Stalin in 1926, Blokhin led a company of executioners that performed and supervised numerous mass executions during Stalin's reign, mostly during the Great Purge and World War II. He is recorded as having executed tens of thousands of prisoners by his own hand, including his killing of about 7,000 Polish prisoners of war during the Katyn Massacre in 1940, making him the most prolific official executioner in recorded world history.

    Also he was a teacher for few generations of NKVD executioners, he wasn't arrested nor demoted by Soviet Stalin's regime. If there existed at least one similar executer among Germans his name would have been used as a demonstration of anti-Russian Nazi criminal policy up to the present day. But since Blohin was a communist he's still a hero for leftists and police, burried in the elite cemetery of Moscow together with his wife :)  And of course, people who fought against such "countrymen" did a mistake ::)

    #409466

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    I meant real directives, not theoretical sketches of future projects..

    This one seems to be the document called "GenplanOSt" magically risen up to the surface through the 64 years after the war. I guess you claim its authenticity in contrast to other various fake Hitler's diaries and directives published in 1960-1990s. Well, nobody and nothing can't give 100% warranty considering political interest in the existence of such documents.

    If that plan was so important why only the single document with about 20 short pages? Copies of this document had to exist in all the agencies of the Reich. If this is the final plan, there should be lots of stamps and signatures of several ministries and senior officials of the Reich. Any more or less significant plan is not written in the form of a small booklet, there should be a pile of documents considering the German pedantry.. It looks like a diary of an official in the Ministry of Agriculture..

    I don't speak German language at all and as a rational person I trust only to reliable translators cuz any "not important" bag could change the whole meaning of a document, so Wiki can't serve a reliable source. I highly doubt if this doc contains real directives of extermination or replacement of Eastern Slavs, cuz it's economically and ideologically meaningless. As I can see the document is full of economical justifications amd romantic plans for future utopian settlements of Reigh on the East.

    3.Verhaltnis zu den Umvolkern

    Da auf Mitarbeit der in den Gebieten jetzt bodenstandigen Bevolkerung nicht verzichtet werden kann, muss die zu schaffende Volkerordnung im Ostraum auf eine Befriedung der dortigen Einwohner abzielen. Diese Befriedung wird dadurch erreicht, dass die notige Bereitstellung von Siedlungsland fur die Ansetzung deutscher Menschen nicht wie bisher durch Evakuierungen, sondern durch Umsetzung der bisherigen Bewohner auf anderem Kolchose- und Sowchoseland mit gleichzeitiger Verleihung von Bodenbesitzrechten erfolgt. Diese Umsetzung muss gebunden sein an eine sinnvolle Auslese nach dem Leistungsprinzip und mit einem sozialen Aufstieg der positiven Krafte des fremden Volkstums Hand in Hand gehen.

    From Google translate:

    3. Relationship with neighbouring folks.

    As to the cooperation in the fields now native population can not be waived, the international order has to be established in the East aimed at pacifying the local population. This peace is achieved in that the necessary provision of municipal land for the German people are not heading as before by evacuations, but by the reaction of the former residents may be by other kolkhoz and Sowchoseland with simultaneous awarding of land ownership rights. This implementation must be tied to a reasonable selection on merit and with a social climbing the positive forces of foreign nationality go hand in hand.

    Unlikely, the supposed author of document, Konrad Meyer-Hetling, was a bloody monster requesting the genocide of Slavs. At his posts Meyer Hetling largely defined agro-science curricula, content and organizational structure of agricultural education in Germany, as well as agricultural research organization in Germany from 1935 to 1945. American tribunal in Nurnberg determined that the plan "OST" of Meyer Hetling developed in accordance with his job responsibilities, the plan itself did not provide for any offense, the plan "OST" has never been accepted, and has been taken nothing to implement the proposals of Meyer Hetling. He was acquitted by the court (except the point about his membership in SS) and released. In 1956 he became professor of the state planning and research of living space at the Faculty of Horticulture and agriculture of Technical University of Hanover, where he worked until his retirement in 1968…

    #409467

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I meant real directives, not theoretical sketches of future projects..

    This one seems to be the document called "GenplanOSt" magically risen up to the surface through the 64 years after the war. I guess you claim its authenticity in contrast to other various fake Hitler's diaries and directives published in 1960-1990s. Well, nobody and nothing can't give 100% warranty considering political interest in the existence of such documents.

    If that plan was so important why only the single document with about 20 short pages? Copies of this document had to exist in all the agencies of the Reich. If this is the final plan, there should be lots of stamps and signatures of several ministries and senior officials of the Reich. Any more or less significant plan is not written in the form of a small booklet, there should be a pile of documents considering the German pedantry.. It looks like a diary of an official in the Ministry of Agriculture..

    I don't speak German language at all and as a rational person I trust only to reliable translators cuz any "not important" bag could change the whole meaning of a document, so Wiki can't serve a reliable source. I highly doubt if this doc contains real directives of extermination or replacement of Eastern Slavs, cuz it's economically and ideologically meaningless. As I can see the document is full of economical justifications amd romantic plans for future utopian settlements of Reigh on the East.

    Unlikely, the supposed author of document, Konrad Meyer-Hetling, was a bloody monster requesting the genocide of Slavs. At his posts Meyer Hetling largely defined agro-science curricula, content and organizational structure of agricultural education in Germany, as well as agricultural research organization in Germany from 1935 to 1945. American tribunal in Nurnberg determined that the plan "OST" of Meyer Hetling developed in accordance with his job responsibilities, the plan itself did not provide for any offense, the plan "OST" has never been accepted, and has been taken nothing to implement the proposals of Meyer Hetling. He was acquitted by the court (except the point about his membership in SS) and released. In 1956 he became professor of the state planning and research of living space at the Faculty of Horticulture and agriculture of Technical University of Hanover, where he worked until his retirement in 1968…

    I'm not here to debate you. I'm just giving you info and scanned documents (for which you asked) and you can believe what you want in general. However i must notice that even when one someone does give you a scanned actual documents you still portrait it as "it's not true" and fake meaning you won't take anything for truth unless it goes with your personal interests.

    I'm personally not on either side be it the Nazi or Communists, but i just try to view things objectively from both perspectives and i'm as hell sure that when someone invades your country and kills your people isn't actually the best friend. Same principle today we can see with Americans bombing, killing Afgans, Irakies while blaming it on Terrorists and portraiting it as "freeing these occupied country for evil terrorists" while terrorist is anyone that actually is an opposition to an invading American army.

    #409468

    Anonymous

    Well, I'm not here to argue as well. Just people often write about germanisation and even sterilisation of occupied territories as a scientifically proven facts, while there are no realible proofs (except propably Main Kampf itself). This argument is always used by supporters of communists, by their words members of every nationalist movements in the ex-USSR were just brainwashed idiots, all nations would be nesessarily exterminated by Germany, and only Stalin's regime saved everyone. Today this myth is said like evil nazis wanted to kill all Russians, that's why Russians have no right for preservation of nation ("fascism") at all.

    I'm pro-Russian and not pro-German. The majority of Russian anticommunists were not crazy supporters of Germany also. In his diaries A. Vlasov called Stalin and Hitler "big and small evil" respectively. Having the choice, they preferred the lesser evil.

    Moreover, the fact of cooperation between anticommunists and Nazi Germany doesn't give a reason to blame  Russians on the Franco side in the Civil war of Spain.

    #409469

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well, I'm not here to argue as well. Just people often write about germanisation and even sterilisation of occupied territories as a scientifically proven facts, while there are no realible proofs (except propably Main Kampf itself). This argument is always used by supporters of communists, by their words members of every nationalist movements in the ex-USSR were just brainwashed idiots, all nations would be nesessarily exterminated by Germany, and only Stalin's regime saved everyone. Today this myth is said like evil nazis wanted to kill all Russians, that's why Russians have no right for preservation of nation ("fascism") at all.

    I'm pro-Russian and not pro-German. The majority of Russian anticommunists were not crazy supporters of Germany also. In his diaries A. Vlasov called Stalin and Hitler "big and small evil" respectively. Having the choice, they preferred the lesser evil.

    Moreover, the fact of cooperation between anticommunists and Nazi Germany doesn't give a reason to blame  Russians on the Franco side in the Civil war of Spain.

    I'm aware of fake documentation during wars on all sides and manipulations with general public. It's no secret that both sides presented themselves as the right, correct and better side than their opposition, we see such things even today on average. Anyway, let's not derail this thread so i won't post about the issue anymore :D

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