Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)
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  • #342314

    Anonymous

    I am interested what is here general opinion about:Roa.Rona,SS Galichina,Serbian  Vollunter Guard,Oun Upa,Hlinkova garda and simmilar combat units ?

    #365608

    Anonymous

    First of all, it's a mistake to lump OUN-UPA together with collaborator units, that's just Jewish and Soviet Russian propaganda. The UPA fought the Nazis just like they fought the Soviets, Poland and pretty much everyone around them. The only somewhat similar army around at this time was the Polish Narodowe Sily Zbrojne, the nationalist wing of Armia Krajowa. Sympathies of Ukrainian nationalists for Nazi Germany quickly faded after the Nazis expressed that they were not interested in forming an independent Ukrainian state (previously they were greated as liberators from the Soviets). The UPA are true heroes for me and every Ukrainian nationalist. UPA bowed to no one, neither to the Soviets nor to the Nazis, they never gave up in their struggle for Ukraine and her people. Their fight for Ukraine's freedom continued until the early 60s and that's quite something if you consider that all the time they had no foreign support and were basically fighting alone against all.

    Concerning SS Halychyna I don't view them as high as the UPA but I still think of them as brave men in the struggle against the Soviet beast.
    Near the end of WW2, SS Halychyna and all other Ukrainians in the service of Nazi Germany formed the Ukrainian National Army under General Pavlo Shandruk, one of my favourite personalities of WW2, next to Roman Shukhevych and Stepan Bandera. I have read many of his writings and I suggest you do the same if you are interested in this subject. If you are able to read cyrillic and have some knowledge of the Ukrainian language, I recommend you this site about SS Halychyna and Ukrainians in the Axis forces in general:
    http://www.galiciadivision.com/main/

    RONA are criminals and scum in my eyes, I do not know why anyone should think of them as heroes. I guess the Polish users here can tell you a lot about how "brave" these men behaved during the Warsaw uprising. Concerning ROA, they were nothing more than opportunists. ROA was comprised of Red Army-soldiers taken prisoner by the Germans who decided to cooperate to spare themselves further trouble.

    #365609

    Anonymous

    Sokil, i suggest you to read any neutral article about your "heroes" and stop your stupid promotion of the exclusive involvement of Russian collaborationists in those  terrible events. Your favourite "The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division" of the SS did crimes against almost all Slavs, I think a lot of users here would agree with that. No one has been absolutely good or absolutely bad. It's the history, and not a cause for propaganda in childish style.

    #365610

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I am interested what is here general opinion about:Roa.Rona,SS Galichina,Serbian  Vollunter Guard,Oun Upa,Hlinkova garda and simmilar combat units ?

    In most cases, many of this units were just cannon fodder at time when Nazi Germany was fully engaged against Red Army and needed every man who could bear arms with anti-communist sympathies to minimize German casualties on Ostfront. Others were indeed nationalist fighters fighting for freedom from Soviet and at same time, against Nazis.

    Regarding what Sokil and Sibiryak said and before this turns into another argument between them (;D), it is important to note that one man's heroes are another man's terrorists. Russians, Ukrainians and Poles will not agree with each other on positions of this units. Best thing to agree upon is that some of this movements were just Nazi lackeys, while others were nationalists fighting only for interests of their countries against all odds (like, for instance, AK in Poland or UPA in Ukraine).

    #365611

    Anonymous

    Before extolling too much any of those groups let's not forget some of us have family members murdered by them. I would be very careful to be too much of a cheerleader for them. We really don't wanna drive a wedge between the Slavs. I rather concentrate on what unites us and brings us closer than on what divides us.

    #365612

    Anonymous

    Indeed, lonewolf. People need to be careful who they label as Slavic heroes, if Slavs fell victim to them too.

    BTW Child Of Dazhbog, out of curiosity, why would you classify RONA as Slavic heroes?

    Only thing those dirty criminals could do effectively was rape, plunder and murder unarmed civilians in Belarus and Poland.
    When it came to combat, they (armed with German weapons) were withdrawn from Belarus due to being severely beaten by Belarussian partizans (armed with what they could get), only to be transfered to Warsaw, where entire brigade could not even clear out 300 poorly-armed Polish uprisers in Ochota District. In revenge after this defenders were FINALLY cleared out, they murdered 10,000 civilians in revenge and plundered/looted area. In fact, RONA's casualties in Warsaw Uprising were THREE TIMES HIGHER than original amount of RONA troops initially sent into Warsaw to put uprising down, that's how pathetic and useless they were as fighters.

    Even Himmler disbanded this unit, shot Kaminski and other RONA leaders and put rest of those idiots to manual labour.
    What does that tell you? 10,000 Belarussian and 10,000 Polish civilians were slaughtered by this savages, that's all they have to show.

    German lapdogs and murderers of fellow Slavs? Yes. Slavic heroes? No.

    For rest, I suppose there are arguments for and against their heroism, but not with f***ing RONA.

    #365613

    Anonymous

    Absolutely Wilkolak. It's always a pleasure reading your comments, you are a wise man. My great grandfather, was an official of Polish government, he was murdered by one of those groups. To be fair same nationality hid my great grandmother and her 7 children for months when the same group were looking for them to finish them off. So it rubs me the wrong way when I read how great they were. I have nothing against other Slavs, but there are things better left alone.

    #365614

    Anonymous

    Most of the men listed seemed to spend the majority of their time fighting for the NAZIS, while making little progress towards actual independence.  I think we can all salute those who fought against the NAZIS and the Communists as patriots, but by the title slavic heroes of World War II I would think that the pantheon would be open to men of all political persuasions and therefore I would suggest the Polish General who led the Polish Parachute Division at Arnhem, who all books on that disaster acknowledge as one of the few completely blameless leaders in that fiasco.  A good soldier sent too late to do an impossible task, who still executed it with intelligence, bravery and selfless sacrafice.

    I would think anybody who served in the Polish Home Army in World War II, dodging the Gestapo and fighting a seemingly endless war, would also count as real heroes.

    Ok, I know this one may be controversial, because of his affiliation with the Communists, but how does everybody feel about Tito of Yugoslavia.  My opinion he was a great fighter, who did a very good job of keeping the goals of Yugoslavia from being taken over by the Communists in Moscow or the British in London.  Most US Army Staff studies were very complimentary of the man and his leadership.  The US OSS men assigned to Yugoslavia thought he might be one of the better leaders in Europe at the time, a warrior, who kew how to unite people, while still maintaining the Yugoslavians own goals independent of Moscows orders.

    Of course if we are going to mention the OSS or Special Operations Executive how can we not recognize the Czech Agents who took out the Reich Protector of Bohemia and paid for it with their lives.

    The Polish fighter pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain should also  make the top ten list, as well as the Poles at Monte Casino.

    Does anybody have negative feelings towards any o these men?  Surely they were all Patriot Nationalists without being NAZIS or Stalinist Stooges.

    #365615

    Anonymous

    I can't believe I left this one off, how about the Polish Army guys who stole the first German Enigma code machine to fall into allied hands.

    #365616

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Does anybody have negative feelings towards any o these men?  Surely they were all Patriot Nationalists without being NAZIS or Stalinist Stooges.

    That is indeed best point made in this whole thread. Nationalists of today force themselves to believe Germany = good, Allies = not good, and completely ignore bravery and sacrifice of men who were only fighting for freedom of their own countries and sometimes for freedom of others! When it comes to Poland, I have ten times more respect for Polish soldiers who fought for freedom of Poland and other European countries under Nazi rule at Arnhem, Monte Casino, Falaise Pocket or Battle of Britain than I do for Soviet-lackeys Armia Ludowa or Bataliony Chłopskie or Nazi-lackeys Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202 or Polnische Wehrmacht, who aside from being used for interests of one or other oppressing force, also killed their own AK kinsmen and their supporters, who were fighting for Poland above all!

    As Sibiryak said very correctly:

    No one has been absolutely good or absolutely bad.

    But I don't see how supporting Nazis or Soviets in any way made you Slavic hero, since more Slavs died thanks to Soviets and Nazis since times of Ottoman/Tartar invasions and oppressive occupations of Slavic Europe. I would scrap most of those listed in original post.

    #365617

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Of course if we are going to mention the OSS or Special Operations Executive how can we not recognize the Czech Agents who took out the Reich Protector of Bohemia and paid for it with their lives.

    The Polish fighter pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain should also make the top ten list, as well as the Poles at Monte Casino.

    Finally somebody mentions them. Polish, Czech, Slovak agents, soldiers and pilots.
    And Monte Cassino! An overlooked event.

    What about the WW1 and Russian Civil War? Czechoslovak legions in France, Serbia, Italy and especially Russia?

    Somebody should make a movie on them. What they accomplished was a feat worthy of 500 hollywood films!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Legions

    #365619

    Anonymous

    Ahem, be careful about Whiteguards and their Cossack allies. They were very cruel towards civillians, too.
    Kolčak, Denikin were certainly not saints.

    #365620

    Anonymous

    Indeed, but those civilians were commie sympathisers.

    #365621

    Anonymous

    Joms Viking & Wilkolak, that's exactly correct, both those that fought for the Nazis or the Commies are no heroes, period.

    #365622

    Anonymous

    They are not heroes at all. They are all pro fascist.
    The real heroes were the partisans

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