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  • #343742

    Anonymous

    Slovenes are a South Slavic nation. Our supposed ancestors are the Alpine Slavs of Carantania and Carniola. The first Slavic settlers arrived after 568 togther with the Avars. In the time of the Freising Monuscripts (Brižinski spomeniki) we can talk about the first evidence of Protoslovene language and not Old Slavonic anymore. It was probably caused by the arrival of Hungarians who separated us from other Western Slavs (if that wouldn't have happened, Slovenes and Slovaks maybe would be one nation?). Our language was in part influenced by Southern Slavic languages. We still use the dual gramatical number in addition to plural and singular.

    As Slovenes were in the Middle Ages divided into several provinces like Carinthia, Carniola, Styria, Gradisca, Gorizia and Istria. In 1550 the lutheran priest Primož Trubar is the first to mention "Slovenci" in the first Slovene book. He is the father of Standart Slovene language. He wanted the Slovenes to understand each other no matter if they're from different parts of nowaday Slovenia. That happens to be quite tricky because Slovenes use various dialects. That for he created a language based on Ljubljanski govor with Dolenjska caracteristics. He wanted to make it simple so all Slovenes could understand it.
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    Other Lutherans made great acheivements too. Juruj Dalmatin was the first to translate the Bible into Slovene. We got our first Dictionary and many other things.
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    (Biblia, tu ie vse svetu pismu, stariga inu noviga testamenta – in Slovene language of that time. Today it would sound like this: Biblija, to je celotno sveto pismo, stare in nove zaveze.)

    In the time period of Enlightenment further contribution was made for the Slovenes by "Zoisov krožek" and others. Valentin Vodnik wrote the first poetry book. He wrote also several school books in Slovene. Anton Tomaž Linhart wrote the first drama play. A second translation of the Bible was made and more can be found… Under Napoleon the Illyrian Provinces were established with the center in Ljubljana. With that came more rights to the Slovene language.
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    "Napoleon reče:
    Ilirija vstan!
    Vstaja, izdiha:
    Kdo kliče na dan?

    Duh stopa v Slovence
    Napoleonov,
    En zarod poganja
    prerojen, ves nov
    (from the poem Ilirija oživlena)

    In the early 1800s much important work was done by Matija Čop and France Prešeren. Prešeren opposed the Illyrian idea of asimilation of all South Slavic nations into one Illyrian. He made great work in Poetry, most important Sonetni Venec and Zdravljica which is our National Anthem. In that tim the idea of "Zedinjena Slovenija" (United Slovenija) raised.
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    After WW1, when Austria-Hungary broke apart, the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs was founded (SHS). General Rudolf Maister raised a volunteer army of 4000 men and defended the City of Maribor agains German Austrian attacks. The army grew to cca 12000 and was able to hold Lower Styria and part of Carinthia. Although most of Carinthia was later lost on the plebiscite. Slovenes later became part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
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    During WW2 Slovenia was occupied by Germans, Italians, Hungarians and Croats. OF (Osvobodilna fronta slovenskega naroda) was established in 1941 and with it the first partisan troops. Those were fighting against numerous enemies like Germans, Italians, Home Guard, White Guard, Chetnics and others in the final acts of the war (Cossacks, Ustaša…). They connected with Yugoslav Partisans and gained control after the war.
    image

    Slovenia was then part of SFRJ. We became independent in 1991 after the Ten Day War in which the Slovene Police and Teritorial Defence forces defeated JN Army. And here we go today…
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    #391197

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It was probably caused by the arrival of Hungarians who separated us from other Western Slavs (if that wouldn't have happened, Slovenes and Slovaks maybe would be one nation?).

    I doubt it becouse of geographical reasons. Even before Magyars we united only once during Samo but later we had seperate developement. However during Great Moravia east parts of modern Slovenia like Prekmurje were indeed part of Morava but other lands weren't.

    #391198

    Anonymous

    Fascinating little country. I was always interested in it.

    I have question to Slovenes here:

    Would you classify your nation and people as Southern Slavs or Western Slavs?

    Sure, language is Southern Slavic, but culture, mentality, race/looks etc. would you say are more similar to other South Slavs or more to West Slavs?

    Just curious, since I find this country to be very much between this two Slavic groups.

    #391199

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Fascinating little country. I was always interested in it.

    I have question to Slovenes here:

    Would you classify your nation and people as Southern Slavs or Western Slavs?

    Sure, language is Southern Slavic, but culture, mentality, race/looks etc. would you say are more similar to other South Slavs or more to West Slavs?

    Just curious, since I find this country to be very much between this two Slavic groups.

    I am not sure how to classify us culturally. Language is South Slavic but there are indeed some cultural elements that set us apart from other Slavs. Why i am not sure how to classify us? Simply becouse each of our regions have different special culture. When talking of Carinthians i would say they are indeed more of West Slavic in terms of Culture and even some dialectical features. Bela krajna people are pretty close to Croats, etc. Some among us would certantly easly blend in Czechia for example. :D

    #391200

    Anonymous

    Carantanians up to the late middle ages were more of a West Slavic nation (they lived in close contact with Czech and Moravians), even though such classification probably didn't exist back then.

    Mentality and phenotypes are more West Slavic imho.

    Culture is a mishmash of Balkan and West Slavic.

    Anyway, amazing thread Štajerc.

    Quote:
    When talking of Carinthians i would say they are indeed more of West Slavic in terms of Culture and even some dialectical features.

    Or more like West German. :D

    #391201

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Sure, language is Southern Slavic, but culture, mentality, race/looks etc. would you say are more similar to other South Slavs or more to West Slavs?

    Well, I am not Slovene, but afaik there were also intensive cultural contacts between Croats and Slovenes, (espetialy with Kajkavian Zagreb and Zagorje). 
    Contacts with Western Slavs were sporadical, due to geographical isolation between the two. Their mentality is also closer to Croatian than any other Slavic nations. I do not see any strong similarities between Slovenes and Czechs and Slovaks.
    Concerning phenotypes, they do not look more similar to Western Slavs than Southern.

    #391202

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I do not see any strong similarities between Slovenes and Czechs and Slovaks.

    Culturaly speaking except for Bela Krajina they are more similar.

    #391203

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Culturaly speaking except for Bela Krajina they are more similar.

    Well, lets see this way. Do names Valentin Vodnik, Oton Župančič, Peržihov Voranc, Primož Trurbar, Fran Peršern Ivan Cankarj means anything to Western Slavs? No. Are that names known in Serbia, Croatia and Bosna? Yes they are well known. As you se intense cultural exchange existed between Slovenes and Southern Slavs. Contacts with Czehcs were random and pretty sporadical.
    Slovne and Croatian serfs rebeled together against feudal lords, Slovenian protestants were trying to spread protestanits among other Southern Slavs, Slovenes accepted Gaj's and Daničić's alphabet, Serbian oldest newspapers were established by Slovene imigrant family Ribnikar… Counts of Cili's ancestral land were in SLovenia, but over the time they sucessfully ploted in politics of Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. Cultural excange betwewn Slovenes and rest of Souts Slavs was constant and intense.

    #391204

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Culturaly speaking except for Bela Krajina they are more similar.

    I agree. Hmmm, the possible point of contact with West Slavs might be because both were influenced by Germanic-speaking people (Austrians and Germans) and even Hungarians to a smaller extent (like Prekmurje). Indeed, Slovenia does have a distinct "Mitteleuropäische kultur" which gives it cultural discontinuity from the rest of the Balkans.

    Then there is also the climatic factor, ie the Alpine climate.

    Slovenian music is also completely different from Balkan tunes.

    I think Wilkolak hit the nail on the head, Slovenia is indeed a point of mediation between West and South Slavs. Some regions like Carinthia, Gorenjska and Štajerska are leaning toward West Slavs, others like Bela Krajina, Primorska, Dolenjska and Istra leaning more toward South Slavs.

    #391205

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well, lets see this way. Do names Valentin Vodnik, Oton Župančič, Peržihov Voranc, Primož Turbar, Fran Peršern Ivan Cankarj means anything to Western Slavs? No. Are that names known in Serbia, Croatia and Bosna? Yes they are well known. As you se intense cultural exchange existed between Slovenes and Southern Slavs. Contacts with Czehcs were random and pretty sporadical.

    Ofc we were part of Yugoslavia so there was much of cultural exchange over this last century and state introduced these people into education, etc.

    However before around 19th century connection with Czhecs was especially strong both culturaly and economicaly. Czech and Slovene educated folks had big ties for quite long ago. There was big influx of Czech and to minor degree Polish (from Polish speaking regions of A-O) industrialists, workers, etc. from 18th century until WWI Basicaly many modern Slovenes are acutaly descendands of these immigrants. Cultural exchange was as i said strong and even Prešern was great mate with Czech poets and few even visited him, etc. Even later after A-O Jože Plečnik was well involved in Chechia most notably he was responsible for readjusting of Hradčani castle. Not to mention that i descent from Polish Silesian immigrants. There are ofc. many many more cases.

    #391206

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Ofc we were part of Yugoslavia so there was much of cultural exchange over this last century and state introduced these people into education, etc.

    Well it is allready other topic, how we got to modern situation. I just pointed cultural connections between Slovenes and other Yugoslavs are far more stronger than between Slovenes and any of West Slavic peoples. 
    But most of examples I stated predate Yugoslavia for few hundred years  (rebellions, protestants, counts of Cili.)
    There was perhaps even stronger cultural exchange between Czechs and Serbs and Croats (Czech philologists took parts in Serbian orhography wars, Jiriček was main authority for Serbian history, Croats accepted lot of Czech words…), but point is cultural exchange between various Southern Slavs wa on much broader basis, was constant (not isolated periods, but in every century, of course it was due to geography) and has more lasting effects.
    You have Czech imigrants who assimilated among Croats (August Šenoa for example, one of most importnant Croatian writers) also and even among Serbs in less significant proportion.

    #391207

    Anonymous

    Yes, it's tricky… Although I think there is an unexplained conection to the Kajkavians in Zagorje. They are beside Slovenes the only people to speak a kajkavian language. In fact it could be also a Slovenian dialect. A old name for Kajkavci is Bezjaki/Bizjaki (Trubar refered to them as such). Anyway, they consider themself Croatian. Like some sayd, some parts are more close to Western and some to Southern Slavs. We can't though speak of a conection with Western Slavs after the isolation up until the 19th century. Then Slavic students in Wienna exchanged their believes. Several movements like Sokoli and Orli were inspired by Czechs. Many Czech architects and artists worked in our lands. Like Jan Vladimir Hrasky who built Slovanski dom in Celje (Narodni dom). On the other hand we accepted Gajica (alphabet) and were in several alliences with Southern Slavs. I am a Styrian. I for my part feel more South Slavic then Western. Perhaps also because our dialect is more alike zagorski dialect then any West slavic dialects. A linguistic indicator is also our alphabet. We dont have voices or letters like ł, Ł, ď, ň, q, w, y, ř and many many others. However, we also dont have letters like đ or ć like other South Slavic nations. We are weird! ;D

    @Dalibor: You make good points. We all were strongly connected. Interesting is that the first victim of the Ten-day-war (Yugo war) in Slovenia was a Slovak! Anyway, we are going oftopic!

    I would like to continue this thread with a debate based on our history and interesting facts about our identity and such. After all, if we would be diferent, we wouldn't be Slovenes!

    #391208

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well it is allready other topic, how we got to modern situation. I just pointed cultural connections between Slovenes and other Yugoslavs are far more stronger than between Slovenes and any of West Slavic peoples. 
    But most of examples I stated predate Yugoslavia for few hundred years  (rebellions, protestants, counts of Cili.)
    There was perhaps even stronger cultural exchange between Czechs and Serbs and Croats (Czech philologists took parts in Serbian orhography wars, Jiriček was main authority for Serbian history, Croats accepted lot of Czech words…), but point is cultural exchange between various Southern Slavs wa on much broader basis, was constant (not isolated periods, but in every century, of course it was due to geography) and has more lasting effects.
    You have Czech imigrants who assimilated among Croats (August Šenoa for example, one of most importnant Croatian writers) also and even among Serbs in less significant proportion.

    In previous post you said;

    Quote:
    Contacts with Czehcs were random and pretty sporadical.

    So i told examples where you can see this was not the case. They were neither random nor sporadical. Exchange with them has long history. Czech people are even in Slovene folklore, etc.

    Anyway concerning presisting contacts with other South's brefore 19th century romantic nationalism and pan-Slavism contact with other South Slavs was realy weak even with Croatians excluding few parts of Croatia for example Croatian rebel Matija Gubec and protestant Croat Antun Vramec printed book in Ljubljana. Most people only knew that there are "Hrovati", "Vlahi" and "Turki" on the other side. Even when Austro-Hun troops anexed Bosnia Slovene soliders thinked they were off fighting Turks.

    #391209

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So i told examples where you can see this was not the case. They were neither random nor sporadical. Exchange with them has long history. Czech people are even in Slovene folklore, etc.

    Like the folklore poem of Pegam and Lambergar. Pegam is a Bohemian.

    #391210

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    In previous post you said;

    Sporadical means: "Occurring at irregular intervals; having no pattern or order in time." not rare. And I will say it again.

    Quote:
    Even when Austro-Hun troops anexed Bosnia Slovene soliders thinked they were off fighting Turks.

    Bosnian Muslim called themselves Turks, even neigbourging Serbs and Croats in Bosnia did not make any essential difference between Slavic Muslims and Ottoman Turks, so that point is not regular. When you fight people who call themselves Turks and all arround call them Turks it does not means you are uninformed.

    Quote:
    Anyway concerning presisting contacts with other South's brefore 19th century romantic nationalism and pan-Slavism contact with other South Slavs was realy weak even with Croatians excluding few parts of Croatia for example Croatian rebel Matija Gubec and protestant Croat Antun Vramec printed book in Ljubljana. Most people only knew that there are "Hrovati", "Vlahi" and "Turki" on the other side.

    Primorž Trubar was educated in Rijeka. Slovene Ungand family fought to spread Protestantizm in Croatia, they had estates in Croatia. You have refferences to Kranjci in Serbian and Croatian folclore. You have Žganci in both Croatia and Slovenia, Slovenes share traditon of strong destiled alcoholic liquors with other Southern Slavs. Slovenian shares krofn with other Southern Slavs…
    Czechs and Slovenes on other hand were phisicaly separated. You dont have Czech books printed in Ljubljana. Cultural interaction is lot easier if language is similar.
    PS
    Vramec printed Chronicle and was Roman Catholic canon.

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