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  • #343726

    Anonymous

    This is a topic I wanted to start some time ago. A mature discussion about the rift between Western and Easter Ukrainians would be nice :)

    Some facts about West Ukraine –

    – Is more nationalistic
    – Low percentage of Russophones/Russophiles
    – Higher percentage of Catholicism
    – Has higher life expectancy/better HDI
    – Less polluted than eastern regions
    – Less HIV infected individuals
    – I've read it has lower GDP than East/SE Ukraine (someone should confirm this, although it makes sense to me)

    Overall IMO people there are very morally upright and have great values.

    Some pics –

    Lviv

    [IMG width=300 height=200]http://i48.tinypic.com/2qs07bq.jpg” />[IMG width=300 height=200]http://i49.tinypic.com/2u9mvcy.jpg” />[IMG width=300 height=200]http://i45.tinypic.com/242sqag.jpg” />

    West Ukraine villages –

    [IMG width=300 height=200]http://i50.tinypic.com/2ryr34j.jpg” />[IMG width=300 height=200]http://i46.tinypic.com/j64f1z.jpg” /> [IMG width=300 height=200]http://i45.tinypic.com/2hi9wld.jpg” />

    Take a good look at last picture (two houses) They are magnificent. It's not like their owners are majestically rich, however the little they have is kept in perfect order Even though years of Soviet opression, they still managed to keep their pre WWI traditions and mentality, I think this alone speaks volumes of them.

    Note this beautiful house in Bukovina (I think it's in the Ukrainian part)

    [IMG width=300 height=200]http://i49.tinypic.com/2vrybcz.jpg” />

    Well that was it about West Ukraine.

    Regarding it's Eastern counterpart, well tbh the only thing there is to say is that it is the polar opposite. Very filthy, racially dysgenic, and overall ruled by pro-Eurasian communists.
    These are common sights I presume –

    [IMG width=300 height=200]http://i50.tinypic.com/4l3y2s.jpg” />[IMG width=300 height=200]http://i46.tinypic.com/ndsn8.jpg” />

    I would like to know how come Westeners and Easteners are two completely different people even though both are Ukrainains. One were under Russian rule, the other under Austro-hungarian/Polish/Lithuanian, however I am sure there is more to it

    Imput from Ukrainians on forum would be very welcome.

    #390842

    Anonymous

    I can be wrong but it seems like a kind of Western-Ukrainian propaganda. Only good photos from the West and everything bad from the East.
    Hopefully, anybody would write a proper data about economy, but higher level of Eastern GDP (as well as pollution level) is explained by concentration of Soviet industry's remains in the Eastern regions. Ironically, those "racially wrong" "anti-Ukrainian" eastern Ukrainians earn money for the Ukrainian state.

    #390843

    Anonymous

    Well it is NOT necessarily divided on Good/Bad West/East axis. There are many good things in east Ukraine too (you named the industry), however Sibiryak, as a fellow anti-Eurasianist you cannot deny that E and SE Ukraine, besides from having Russian, has also a substantial Eurasian/Communist influence.

    I think that kind of inluence is detrimental to Ukraine's advancement and prosperity.

    #390844

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I can be wrong but it seems like a kind of Western-Ukrainian propaganda. Only good photos from the West and everything bad from the East.

    I hope this helps.
    Eastern Ukraine cities:
    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=160]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/CongressHall.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=160]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Donbass_Arena_12.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=160]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Gosprom_Kharkiv.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=160]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Kharkov_Freedom_Square.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=160]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5dy_qs22WUM/T9JAVs1ig6I/AAAAAAAAAFI/BPTUSXogHRY/s1600/kater.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=160]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Dnipropetrowsk.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=160]http://www.hotelinspector.com/sevastopol.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    Eastern Ukrainian cultural heritage:

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2._%D0%95%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8C.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/AX_Chernigiv_Pyatnitska_Church.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Hersones_Crimea_Sevastopol.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Krestovozdvizenskiy_monastyr_v_Poltave.JPG” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=190]http://www.tour2kiev.com/the_wvc/gal_turs/639d5ef33a51566a22f9a4fcde58c4e91276853468100.jpg” />[/td]

    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/OldUkrainianPostOffice.JPG” />[/td]

    [td][img height=190]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Blagoveschensky_church_in_Kharkov.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    #390845

    Anonymous

    My understanding is that western Ukraine has been more rural and less populated.  East had large Soviet era cities based on military and scientific industries. If I'm wrong I apologize. I would think there is good and bad in both. I was in Kiev in 1976 and it was a beautiful city with lots of historical charm

    #390846

    Anonymous

    As already stated by OP, Western Ukrainians in general have a higher quality of life, better education, are healthier both mentally and physically and live in a healthy, unpolluted environment. Eastern Ukraine is wealthier in statistics only, in reality there are just a bunch of oligarchs making a lot of money with the mentioned remains of old Soviet industry while the rest has a rather shitty life. Eastern Ukraine is famous for gopniks, alcoholics, junkies, prostitutes, mailorder brides and similar scum, but the saddest of all, there are also many street chidren who were abandoned by their scumbag parents or ran away from them – these phenomenons are nearly absent in Western Ukraine. Many Eastern Ukrainians can't be considered Slavic at all, the area is to a high degree populated by various Eurasian mixes whose ancestors were brought in during the times of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. Also already mentioned, Moskvophilia, Eurasianism and Communism enjoy great popularity there, cities like Donetsk have perhaps an even higher density of Homo Sovieticus than some Russian cities.

    In general, as you might guess, Eastern Ukraine is a rather problematic topic.

    #390847

    Anonymous

    Dont we all love internet it is such nice place for copy/pasting and making yourself "well informed" ;D

    http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10814

    #390848

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Dont we all love internet it is such nice place for copy/pasting and making yourself "well informed" ;D

    http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10814

    What I posted is not copy-pasted from anywhere (I just saw this site you posted for the first time), it is common knowledge for anyone who is even the least bit familiar with Ukraine – whether you like these facts or not.

    On a side-note, please don't turn this thread into another shitfest like you did with several other threads (especially when Belarus was mentioned :D). Let's just respect Carniolan's wish for a civil discussion and behave like adults :)

    #390849

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    What I posted is not copy-pasted from anywhere

    Why do you think that I speak about you? You clearly could se who copy/pasted and what did he posted.

    Quote:
    Let's just respect Carniolan's wish for a civil discussion and behave like adults :)

    I believe he put me on ignore list, but anyway, when he decides to discuss something, not just randomly past quite different opinions from elswhere, I might take him seriously, until then, I could admire his salto mortales.
    Teenage kids who one day idolize Germans and one day disrespectfully talk about them (or Russians) hardly could be taken seriously.

    Quote:
    On a side-note, please don't turn this thread into another ****fest like you did with several other threads (especially when Belarus was mentioned :D).

    When Gambler and you acctually have some argument (for example medieval flag  acctaully from Middle ages) things could look different ;D

    #390850

    Anonymous

    Ukrainian Nationalism was a project to build an economic and military bloc between the people of the Dnieper and Carpathians.  Unlike Western European nationalism, this was an identity project which included non-Slavs who resided in Ukraine, among them the descendents of Vlachs, Uralic-Finns, Tatars and Caucasian people.  In Eastern Ukraine's case, much of the social degeneracy present has to do with the presence of Caucasian and Tatar mixed people and Uralic Finns.

    Ukrainian nationalism sense is a failed gamble as the Ukrainian states in the past were powerless to resist Poland and Russia in both economic and military matters.  Fast forward today, Ukraine is the poorest large country in Europe and is effectively a Satellite / in the Sphere of the Russian Federation.

    Ukraine technically has the largest iron reserves in Europe (#6 exporter in the world and could increase extraction), not counting Russia's iron reserves which includes non-European territories like the Urals and Siberia.  Ukraine also has good reserves of other metals and minerals.  If the Australian economy is in a major boom just from exporting iron ore, then why can't Ukraine undergo the same potential?  When I was in Ukraine, it feel poorer than what I saw in Asian countries.  There's just too much cultural Oligarchism / Corruption in Central and Eastern Ukraine.  If Western Ukraine had all of the East's Iron, it would be doing as well as Poland if not better.

    Ukraine is a bad union and I don't see it as a viable state as long as the economy and military is too weak, never mind a large Russian minority.  Western Ukraine needs to get out of that mess and join in with the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks.

    #390851

    Anonymous

    Would you propose an independent west Ukraine or partition between Poland and Slovakia? 

    #390852

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Would you propose an independent west Ukraine or partition between Poland and Slovakia?

    Partition with Poland and Slovakia?  It's not the 1920s..  Western Ukraine would be accepted into the Western Bloc without question due to cultural affinity.

    #390853

    Anonymous

    Actually think many European countries would like a partition

    #390854

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Why do you think that I speak about you? You clearly could se who copy/pasted and what did he posted.

    Okay, I should have seen it. I apologize then.

    Quote:
    Ukrainian Nationalism was a project to build an economic and military bloc between the people of the Dnieper and Carpathians.  Unlike Western European nationalism, this was an identity project which included non-Slavs who resided in Ukraine, among them the descendents of Vlachs, Uralic-Finns, Tatars and Caucasian people.  In Eastern Ukraine's case, much of the social degeneracy present has to do with the presence of Caucasian and Tatar mixed people and Uralic Finns.

    Ukrainian nationalism sense is a failed gamble as the Ukrainian states in the past were powerless to resist Poland and Russia in both economic and military matters.  Fast forward today, Ukraine is the poorest large country in Europe and is effectively a Satellite / in the Sphere of the Russian Federation.

    Ukraine technically has the largest iron reserves in Europe (#6 exporter in the world and could increase extraction), not counting Russia's iron reserves which includes non-European territories like the Urals and Siberia.  Ukraine also has good reserves of other metals and minerals.  If the Australian economy is in a major boom just from exporting iron ore, then why can't Ukraine undergo the same potential?  When I was in Ukraine, it feel poorer than what I saw in Asian countries.  There's just too much cultural Oligarchism / Corruption in Central and Eastern Ukraine.  If Western Ukraine had all of the East's Iron, it would be doing as well as Poland if not better.

    Ukraine is a bad union and I don't see it as a viable state as long as the economy and military is too weak, never mind a large Russian minority. Western Ukraine needs to get out of that mess and join in with the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks.

    I understand your thoughts and I agree on some points, but seperating the East is more like a last resort solution (if it proves to be totally impossible to re-ukrainize it). Not all hope is lost yet and we should rather try to cure the infection instead of severing the limb, metaphorically speaking. The eastern and coastal regions are still important, both from a historical (Ukraine without Poltava or Zaporizhzhya? Hard to imagine, isn't it?) and an economic (ressources, industry, ports) perspective.

    Quote:
    Actually think many European countries would like a partition

    Those who want to see Ukraine butchered can kiss my ass. The only ones to decide about Ukraine's fate are we Ukrainians.

    #390855

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Okay, I should have seen it. I apologize then.

    No problems. :)

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