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  • #344942

    Anonymous

    I was wondering, how did Serbians end up in that part of Croatia?
    Was that part originally Serbia, but then categorized as being part of Croatia?
    Or was it just a part of Croatia that a group of Serbians moved to?

    What's the history behind this area?
    I'm interested in this because this is where my family is from.
    My dad and his family are from Malička, overlooking Petrova Gora, and my mum is from Katinovac.

    #407704

    Anonymous

    When the Ottomans invaded Serbia, Serbs began to move Westwards into Bosnia and Croatia. They also went north into, what is now, Vojvodina.

    #407705

    Anonymous

    During the times of Austria-Hungary, they set up a Croatian military frontier (Hrvatska vojna krajina). They let anyone in and gave them free land. There was also freedom on religion in the frontier. In exchange, the population there had to fight for Austria-Hungary against invaders. I'm assuming that's why that area was mostly inhabited by Serbs.

    #407706

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I was wondering, how did Serbians end up in that part of Croatia?
    Was that part originally Serbia, but then categorized as being part of Croatia?
    Or was it just a part of Croatia that a group of Serbians moved to?

    What's the history behind this area?
    I'm interested in this because this is where my family is from.
    My dad and his family are from Malička, overlooking Petrova Gora, and my mum is from Katinovac.

    Zdravo brate,.

    Serbians and other Orthodox settlers ended up in that part of Croatia due to the Austrians creating a military frontier there. During that time the border of Bosnia and Croatia today represented the border between the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman borders. The Austrians took in refugees from Ottoman conquered Serbia and other parts of the Balkans the Ottomans conquered. In exchange for military service the Orthodox population was allowed to retain a degree of autonomy.

    The Croatian Krajina was once the heartland of medieval Croatia much like Kosovo was to the Serbs. Knin was even the capital at one point ;). Petrova Gora is called so because of Croatia's last king that Petar Svacic. He was killed there.

    Hope that helps.

    #407707

    Anonymous

    yes, Serbs were asked to protect the military frontier, from the ottomans. In return they were given land to live on.

    #407708

    Anonymous

    No one mentions the Habsburg's Vlach Statute, which regulated taxes of the population of Vojna Krajina. This document mentioned the Population as "Vlahs of all faiths" who inhabited Krajina. Hence, the majority probably being Serbocroatian speaking Vlahs? There is/was a large population of people still calling themselves Vlah. They were not recognized as an ethnic group since the the late 19th century so they have been mostly assimilated with the Serbs and Bosniaks.

    #407709

    Anonymous

    Where did you get they were Vlachs? They were called Vlachs, not being it. Descendants of Vlachs are recognisable by last names.

    #407710

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    No one mentions the Habsburg's Vlach Statute, which regulated taxes of the population of Vojna Krajina. This document mentioned the Population as "Vlahs of all faiths" who inhabited Krajina. Hence, the majority probably being Serbocroatian speaking Vlahs? There is/was a large population of people still calling themselves Vlah. They were not recognized as an ethnic group since the the late 19th century so they have been mostly assimilated with the Serbs and Bosniaks.

    Use logic, which Vlach would get assimilated as a Serb in Catholic Austro-Hungary, and in Croatia. :)

    You assimilate to the populus you live within, not to the populus which has lesser rights and is a minority. If Vlachs were settled, most became Croats and catholics, identifying as a Serb would not benefit them in any situation, in no region of that time.

    P.S. Vlah then was a denomination for shepherd settlers, not an ethnicity. Else there still would be a lively community of them. The logic is same as calling the Cossacks a turkic people because their denomination is of Cuman turkic origin, meaning freeman in the same manner Vlah meant probably the same.

    #407711

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Use logic, which Vlach would get assimilated as a Serb in Catholic Austro-Hungary, and in Croatia. :)

    You assimilate to the populus you live within, not to the populus which has lesser rights and is a minority. If Vlachs were settled, most became Croats and catholics, identifying as a Serb would not benefit them in any situation, in no region of that time.

    P.S. Vlah then was a denomination for shepherd settlers, not an ethnicity. Else there still would be a lively community of them. The logic is same as calling the Cossacks a turkic people because their denomination is of Cuman turkic origin, meaning freeman in the same manner Vlah meant probably the same.

    Logic, professing the orthodox faith, which Vlah wouldnt get assimilated as a Serb. In a land with Catholic, M*****, Orthodox Slavs, which group would they likely assimilate into. The ruling Germans couldnt tell a Serb from a Croat without knowing their religious proffession.

    Agreed, they are not a single ethnicity, rather Serbocroatian speaking rememants of the pre-Slavic population of SE European population. You forget, there are scattered communities across SE Europe who struggle to counteract assimilation among Slavs and Greeks even today.

    #407712

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Where did you get they were Vlachs? They were called Vlachs, not being it. Descendants of Vlachs are recognisable by last names.

    Whole extended families reject being called Serbs, they call themselves Vlasi. Of course they are Serbocroatian speaking Orthodox Christians, so to every one else, they are Serbs. I kind of learned who were the Vlah families by looking at their given names. They strictly do not use Slavic given names, only Christian names. 

    #407713

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Logic, professing the orthodox faith, which Vlah wouldnt get assimilated as a Serb. In a land with Catholic, M*****, Orthodox Slavs, which group would they likely assimilate into. The ruling Germans couldnt tell a Serb from a Croat without knowing their religious proffession.

    Agreed, they are not a single ethnicity, rather Serbocroatian speaking rememants of the pre-Slavic population of SE European population. You forget, there are scattered communities across SE Europe who struggle to counteract assimilation among Slavs and Greeks even today.

    Why would a Vlach get assimilated in a Serb in a country where the majority are Croats. You assimilate into a majority, not into a minority. Even Serbs did this, assimilating into Croats, Hungarians etc. :)

    If anything a Vlach would rather assimilate into a catholic Croat, or a m[size=1pt]'[/size]uslim Bosniak, since catholics were a majority in Croatia and they were the class with most privileges, as well as m[size=1pt]'[/size]uslims in Bosnia. Use some reason.

    By the way, most Vlachs historically inhabited the Dalmatian coast as well as Istria, where the Roman population was at the maximum. As for your extended family identifying as Vlachs, well there is nothing bad in being a Vlach, however one cannot take one family and identify a whole nation with it. Croats by far assimilated most of foreign ethnicities into their national corpus over the catholic religion and croatisation, Vlachs, Hungarians and Serbs being the most numerous among those. Surnames are a clear evidence of it. However calling the Croats, croatizised Vlachs or Hungarians or Serbs, is false since their culture is croatian Slavic and not something else.

    P.S. Of course one could also follow Ante Starčević's and Stjepan Radić's chauvinist philosophy in which all Serbs are actually orthodox Vlachs or Croats, that got manipulated by the 'overwhelming power' of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Austro-Hungarian Empire into identifying as a minority with less rights and privileges than the others. However such statement eventhough useful when in need of ethnically cleansing a whole nation from a country, by simply denying it, still lacks common reason. You would however not be alone in that views, there is one more crypto-serbophobe on this forum under the name Xekoslav, with Konzervativac2.0 and Frost, you build a good front, like in the good, old Pavelić/Kulenović days. :)

    #407714

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Whole extended families reject being called Serbs, they call themselves Vlasi.

    Which families?

    Quote:
    Of course they are Serbocroatian speaking Orthodox Christians, so to every one else, they are Serbs. I kind of learned who were the Vlah families by looking at their given names. They strictly do not use Slavic given names, only Christian names.

    You dont have clue. Dušan Grijak, Milan Grijak, Milovan Grijak, Rodoljub Kubat, than Džodani that is reall familes of Vlach origin from there, and mostly have Slavic names. And they were not Serbocroatian speaking but Serbian. Dragan Đilas is also descendant of such family. I know which families could be Vlach, but given names are not argument. (Usually those which do not have any meaning in Serbian)

    #407715

    Anonymous

    Why would a Vlach get assimilated in a Serb in a country where the majority are Croats. You assimilate into a majority, not into a minority. Even Serbs did this, assimilating into Croats, Hungarians etc.

    If anything a Vlach would rather assimilate into a catholic Croat, or a m'uslim Bosniak, since catholics were a majority in Croatia and they were the class with most privileges, as well as m'uslims in Bosnia. Use some reason.

    What country with majority of Croats was this? I believe the Croats were subordinates of the Habsburg monarchy in Wien and were a minority themselves
    .
    The Vlahs you are referring to are Catholic Dalmatians and Istro-Romanians. The Vlahs I refer to are one who came from Herzegovina, Montenegro and the Bosnia-Serbia border with the Serbs and Bosniaks to Krajina. They came because they were offered land if willing to serve as soldiers for Austria Hungary and the Ottoman Empire (not as often).

    My Vlahs= remnant population of East Roman Empire (Orthodox Christians, undefined ethnicities)
    Your Vlahs= remnant population of West Roman Empire, mostly assimilated into Venetians and later Croats.

    They assimilated much easier into the Serb community because like Serbs and Bosniaks, they faced much animosity from the Catholic populace (credit to the papacy). The Orthodox Christians weren't seen as Christian brothers by Catholics, they weren't treated any better then M******.

    Maybe the problem with this is the poorly defined term "Vlah."

    By the way, most Vlachs historically inhabited the Dalmatian coast as well as Istria, where the Roman population was at the maximum. As for your extended family identifying as Vlachs, well there is nothing bad in being a Vlach, however one cannot take one family and identify a whole nation with it. Croats by far assimilated most of foreign ethnicities into their national corpus over the catholic religion and croatisation, Vlachs, Hungarians and Serbs being the most numerous among those. Surnames are a clear evidence of it. However calling the Croats, croatizised Vlachs or Hungarians or Serbs, is false since their culture is croatian Slavic and not something else.

    Not one family, many. I am not saying the Serbs of Krajina are Vlahs, I'm saying many are Serbianized Vlahs. This is not an insult of any kind. However stupid this sounds, Vlahs are Yugoslavs just as much as we are.

    Here's the logic of the drunk old men who made this claim; the ruling Catholic Croat class labels every other a Serb or M***** Serb because it made political sense, Serbs belong in Serbia and M***** in Turkey.

    #407716

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Which families?
    You dont have clue. Dušan Grijak, Milan Grijak, Milovan Grijak, Rodoljub Kubat, than Džodani that is reall familes of Vlach origin from there, and mostly have Slavic names. And they were not Serbocroatian speaking but Serbian. Dragan Đilas is also descendant of such family. I know which families could be Vlach, but given names are not argument. (Usually those which do not have any meaning in Serbian)

    You dont have clue.

    Well said by a scholar and historian.

    And they were not Serbocroatian speaking but Serbian.

    Whatever.

    They are Serbianized, what would you expect? Some Vlahs in Serbian population prefer to differentiate themselves, some don't.

    #407717

    Anonymous

    You said they do not have Serbian names, I allready said they mostly have Serbian names of Slavic origin, like other Serbs, you seem to confuse them with Cincari which lived in Serbia, which ususally had Greek names. Sorry if I was rude, but most of that people than and now have Slavic names, and Vlachs, Serbs and Rascians was used interchangably in Austrian documents, which makes that documents not reliable. Only clue about Slavic or Vlach ancestry are family traditions.
    Also, majority of Serbs in Lika, Banija, Slavonija and Dlamatian hinterland were Serbs, as their family names and family traditions suggest.
    For example leader of one of first migrations was metropolitan Maksim Predojević, what is Vlach in his surname?

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