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  • #346171

    Anonymous

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    Novgorod Republic ceased to exist in late 15th century. It's possible the dialect survived in remote areas till 19th century. The dialect is studied is from the birch barks from 10-13th centuries which were preserved well in Novgorod region.

    Some examples of Birch barks. Birch bark number 155 reads:

    "[you] took [possibly for marriage] a girl from Domaslav, and Domaslav took 12 hryvnas from me. Send me 12 hryvnas. If you won’t send [the hryvnas], then I will stand [meaning he will go to court] before Knayz’ and Bishop; then get ready for a big loss."

    No: 155
    [img width=700 height=243]http://s12.postimg.org/sb6enryod/Berest_gramata_n_155.jpg”/>

    The text in this birch bark is invitation for a visit of brother in law and girl Ulita.

    image

    The text is about marriage proposal.

    image

    The texts were written by ordinary people in Novgorodian dialect rather old Church Slavonic. Novgorodians were generally educated people. Well, they could write. :)

    Quote:
    I usually answer language related questions.

    Novgorodian dialect (another eastern Slavic ? language) could be a good subject for discussion. :)

    #425848

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Novgorodian dialect (another eastern Slavic ? language) could be a good subject for discussion. :)

    If you mean Northern Russian dialect, I have the very basic knowledge about it. AFAIK, it's used less and less these days, which I found sad because I really like it's sound (оканье).

    #425849

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    If you mean Northern Russian dialect, I have the very basic knowledge about it. AFAIK, it's used less and less these days, which I found sad because I really like it's sound (оканье).

    I meant the Novgorodian dialect existed in Novgorodian Republic which was different to old Russian exhibiting some features with western Slavic langauges. It's now extinct.

    Новгородский язык. Так могло бы быть…

    Согласно выводам некоторых учёных, если бы Новгород не был присоединён к Московскому государству в 1478 году, то к нынешнему времени на базе новгородского диалекта сформировался бы ещё один восточнославянский язык, который отличался бы от русского так же сильно, как украинский или белорусский.

    Такой вывод позволяет сделать анализ особенностей древненовгородского диалекта, который обнаруживает в себе множество особых черт, не характерных для других древнерусских диалектов. Некоторые из них проявляют сходство с западнославянскими языками.

    Выдающийся специалист по истории Новгорода наш современник академик Валентин Лаврентьевич Янин в одной из своих статей пишет об этом так: «Особенности новгородского диалекта наиболее ярко проявляются в текстах XI—XII веков, а в более позднее время они постепенно исчезают в результате контактов с другими восточнославянскими диалектами. Поиски аналогов особенностям новгородского диалекта позволили сделать вывод, что предки средневековых новгородцев переселились с территории современных Польши и Северной Германии».

    Таким образом, если бы новгородскому диалекту было суждено развиться в самостоятельный язык, он бы, возможно, имел некоторые западнославянские черты — как имеют их современные украинский и белорусский языки. Ведь отделение данных языков от великорусского, начавшееся примерно с XIV века, было обусловлено тем, что значительная часть Украины и Белоруссии оказалась тогда под властью Речи Посполитой. В результате украинский и белорусский языки содержат множество польских заимствований в лексике, а в белорусском языке и фонетика имеет некоторое сходство с польской (в частности, аффрикатизация мягких т и д соответственно в ц и дз).

    Кстати, по мнению некоторых учёных, четвёртый восточнославянский язык всё же существует, хоть и весьма далеко от Новгорода. Это  русинский язык — язык народа русинов в украинском Прикарпатье и ряде стран Восточной Европы. В сербском автономном крае Воеводина русинский язык имеет статус официального наряду с сербским и несколькими другими языками.

    А. А. Зализняк «Древненовгородский диалект» : http://gramoty.ru/?id=dnd

    В. Л. Янин "Очерки истории средневекового Новгорода"
    http://www.e-reading.co.uk/bookreader.php/137788/Yanin_-_Ocherki_istorii_srednevekovogo_Novgoroda.html

    #425850

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Novgorodian dialect (another eastern Slavic ? language) could be a good subject for discussion. :)

    I couldn't answer to questions about this dialect (or rather language). My knowledge of dialects is limited to our local Balachka, which is something like Surzhyk.

    #425851

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I couldn't answer to questions about this dialect (or rather language). My knowledge of dialects is limited to our local Balachka, which is something like Surzhyk.

    The Novgorodian dialect is an interesting subject.

    There was concept in Soviet historiography about Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians stemming from the same group of people living in Ukraine. Ancestors of Russians and Belarusians migrated north and north east after they were pushed by the Huns. Now, there is some evidence some eastern Slavic tribes migrated from the west (territories of present Poland) rather than south (Ukraine).  One of those evidences is the Novgorodian dialect exhibiting many features found in western Slavic languages. There’s some genetic evidence linking NW Russia to Poland, although there was no formal study done.

    #425852

    Anonymous

    There's also a theory that Rurik was a Baltic Slav.

    #425853

    Anonymous

    Yes i have read that DNA testing of Ruriks blood line (descendants) mostly showed some Finnic haplogroups indicating Rurik himself was genetically neither a Germanic nor Slavic but rather Finnic while Vikings where more or less a mercenary pack made up from Germanics, Slavs and Finnics and Novogrod was pretty much probably of similar composition.

    #425854

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    There's also a theory that Rurik was a Baltic Slav.

    Satarist Mikhail Zadornov is a proponent of this hypothesis. I don't know any serious scholar supporting the hypothesis of Rurik  having origins among the Polabian Slavs. The hypothesis is quiet simple. Rurik and varangians were seafarers. Who were the seafarers among Slavs at the time? The Palabian Slavs. Now, let's create a beautiful story about our founders of Rus'.

    #425855

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes i have read that DNA testing of Ruriks blood line (descendants) mostly showed some Finnic haplogroups indicating Rurik himself was genetically neither a Germanic nor Slavic but rather Finnic while Vikings where more or less a mercenary pack made up from Germanics, Slavs and Finnics and Novogrod was pretty much probably of similar composition.

    There are recent studies on N1c1 haplogroup and Rurikids Y-chromosome DNA.

    There are different clades in N1c1 haplogroup. Some are labelled as Finno-Ugric, while other are Balto-Slavic, Scandinavian and Iberian. The age of N1c1 is 8,000-9,000 years old.http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

    image

    The Balto-Slavic clade is found among Lithuanians (37%), Latvians, Belarusians (10%), Russians ~ (5-6%, the other clades of N1c1 are not South-Baltic),  northern Poles ~2%.

    Rurikids have the N1c1d1 ( L550 (N-L550) ) subclade that divides into  three branches which you can see on the diagram above. The one that Rurikids have belongs to a Scandinavian branch of N-L550 subclade. South Baltic and Scandinavian sub-clades separated 3,500 years ago. The article (in Russian) discusses haplotypes found in Rurikids descendants : http://trog.narod.ru/articles/rurikids/Rurikids.pdf

    South western Finns also have the Scandavian sub-clade which likely arrived with Scandinavian settlers to south-western corner of Finland.

    #425856

    Anonymous

    If not for radio,TV and other kinds of mass media communication we would have many dialects throughout Russia till present days. So, it is not surprise about Novgorod.  :)

    #425857

    Anonymous

    There was once upon the time, town known as Stargard=stary grad, inhabitated by polabian slavic tribe named Vagryans, todays Oldenburg in Germany, close to Danmark.

    Why not Novgorod=novy grad, founded by somebody from Stargard :)

    Rurik could be easily mix of slavic/germanic/finic ancestors, as polabian slavic nobility, merchants, certainly were.

    #425858

    Anonymous

    Yes i have read that DNA testing of Ruriks blood line (descendants) mostly showed some Finnic haplogroups indicating Rurik himself was genetically neither a Germanic nor Slavic but rather Finnic while Vikings where more or less a mercenary pack made up from Germanics, Slavs and Finnics and Novogrod was pretty much probably of similar composition.

    I have read too, it is interesting, but some scholars have opinions, that the lineage from todays descendant to ancestors-Rurik is not so certain.

    #425859

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    There was once upon the time, town known as Stargard=stary grad, inhabitated by polabian slavic tribe named Vagryans, todays Oldenburg in Germany, close to Danmark.

    Why not Novgorod=novy grad, founded by somebody from Stargard :)

    Rurik could be easily mix of slavic/germanic/finic ancestors, as polabian slavic nobility, merchants, certainly were.

    I'd be rather suspicious. There is Novo mesto in Slovenia but there ain't no town called Staro mesto. At least i don't know any. The term novo was rather given cuz it was newly founded town in that era and the name just sticked to it altho it was also called Rudolfovo.

    #425860

    Anonymous

    hehe, Staré město is in Prague.

    I am suspicous too :)

    #425861

    Anonymous
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