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  • #345881

    Anonymous

    The Slavic presence in the Balkans is divided chronologically in two phases. In a first phase, roughly 550-600 AD, the Slavs as allies of the Avars commit only raids and usually return withthe booty in their supra-Danubian homeland. During these phase, slavic settlement in the northern Balkans could have occured. In a second phase, roughly after 600 AD, the Slavic warbands migrate with their women and children and begin to settle permanently even in the southern Balkans. Greece was no exception and the entire peninsula was heavily settled. By 700 AD most of the Hellenic Peninsula was a large “Sklavenia”. Before the Byzantine reconquista, only Thessaloniki and its hinterland and most of the eastern coast of continental Hellas and Peloponnese along with isolated coastal cities remained under Byzantine political Authority. Here are two maps taken from John F. Haldon’s “Byzantium in the 7th century: the transformation of a culture” and Mark Whittow’s “The Making of Orthodox Byzantium, 600-1025 AD”.

    It seems that the Slavic infiltration in the Helladic Peninsula started from the west along the Pindus range and linguists have noted that the density of Slavic toponyms in Greece is higher in the western rather than the eastern part of the peninsula. Walter Kaegi in page 29 of his “Byzantium and the Early Islamic conquests” shows this intermediate phase with the following map:

    The Slavic settlement in Greece can be examined in two ways:

    1) Philologically, by the use of Contemporary or quasi-contemporary historical testimonies.
    2) Linguistically, by the analysis of the Slavic toponyms. Many “frozen” fossilized toponyms inform us about the phonological evolution from Early Proto-Slavic to Late Proto-Slavic and eventually to South Slavic and, for some, eventually Bulgarian.

    #422454

    Anonymous

    Linguistical analysis of the Salvic toponyms in Greece.

    Linguists recognize 2 phases of Proto-slavic:

    An Early Proto-Slavic (EPS) phase when the *a>o shift has not yet occured in Proto-Slavic and a Late Proto-Slavic phase (LPS).

    We do know that the *a>o shift in Proto-Slavic was completed after the slavic settlement in the Balkans, because many pre-slavic balkanian toponyms which originally contained /a/ in the mouth of the Slavs eventually gave /o/.

    Examples:

    i) Thessaloniki > Solun
    ii) Kastoria > Kostur
    iii) Assamus > Osum

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osum

    iv) Alutus > Olt

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olt_River

    v) Salonae > Solin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solin

    It is also interesting that Latin acetum was borrowed into OCS and rendered as оцьтъ (ocĭtŭ) and in Romanian as oțet, although the Dalmatian romance reflex has preserved the original /a/ (acait). 

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BE%D1%86%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%8A
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/o%C8%9Bet
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acait

    Many Slavic toponyms in Greece have been fossilized in the pre-*a>o state and show an EPS /a/.

    Examples:

    i) Καρδίτσα, Γάρδιτσα, Γαρδίκι all containing the EPS *gardŭ , which later became LPS *gordŭ and ,eventually, after the Liquid Metathesis gave south Slavic grad, East Slavic gorod/horod and West Slavic grod/hrod.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/gord%D1%8A#Proto-Slavic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karditsa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiki
    http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B2%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%B1_%CE%97%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82

    The south slavic evolution of the toponyms would have been:

    Gardica> Gordica > Gradica
    Gardĭkĭ > Gordĭcĭ > Gradec/Gradac

    ii) The toponyms Arahova:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachova
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyes

    EPS *arěhŭ > LPS orěhŭ > modern oreh/orah.

    iii) The toponym Karytaina (/ai/ is pronounced as /e/ in Greek):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karytaina

    EPS *karyto > LPR koryto

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/korito

    #422455

    Anonymous

    Another fossilized feature is the preservation of the Old Slavic yers (ultra short vowels).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yers

    Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *o,u gave Proto-Slavic (PS) ъ = ŭ and PIE *e,i gave PS ь = ĭ.

    Examples:

    PIE *wl.kwos "wolf" > pre-PS vilkos (cf Lith vilkas) > PS vьlkъ/vĭlkŭ

    PIE *weik'- > pre-PS *visi > PS vĭsĭ "village" > modern SrbCr vas / Bulgarian ves (like PIE *dei-"shine" > dĭnĭ > dan/den "day").

    The Greek toponym Ποδογορά (Podogora) is the greek reflex of PS podŭ-gora and vocalizes the yer as /o/, when all modern slavic languages have lost the yer (pod > Podgora).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/pod%D1%8A#Proto-Slavic

    Similarly, the Viros Gorge in Peloponnese where the Slavic tribes of the Ezeritai and Melingoi used to live contains the yer of virŭ > vir

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viros_Gorge

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi

    After 750-800 AD, the places that continued to be Slavic speaking performed the so-called south Slavic Liquid Metathesis (*gordŭ > gradŭ > grad, *per-> prě– > jekavian pre-, "yakavian" prya, i(je)kavian pri/prije etc).

    Hence, the toponym Preveza is made out of the south-slavic verb "prě-voziti" and means "passage" (cf. Eastern Slavic Perevoz):

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prevoziti
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preveza
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perevoz

    Meanwhile, the toponyms Kravari/ Kravara show the liquid metathesis PS *korva > South Slavic krava.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/korva#Proto-Slavic

    Attested toponyms:

    Example:

    toponym 46 in Arcadia Κράβαρι (Kravari):

    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_19.htm#46

    In certain cases, the south Slavic evolution continued in forms that linguistically are Buglarian. Examples:

    1) "yakavian" reflex of the yat (ě>ya, cf. east Bulg. mlyako, mryana for "ekavian" mleko, mrena):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yat

    For example, we find toponyms such as Δριάνοβον (Dryanovo ~ Drenovo) and various forms for Λιάσκοβον (Lyaskovo ~ Leskovo).

    Examples from Thessaly:

    Toponyms b)11 Dryanovo and c)28 Lyaskovo here:

    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#b11

    It must also be noted that the proto-southslavic fishname mrěna (Barbus Cyclolepis) entered in greek as μπριάνα/briana reflecting Bulgarian "yakavian" mryana as opposed to "ekavian" mrena.

    2) Biconsonantal reflexes of the proto-slavic clusters *(k)tj> št and *dj>žd.

    Thus, in Thessaly we find Μεσδάνι (< meždane) from proto-slavic *medju (Srb-Cr među, Bulg. meždu).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/me%C4%8Fu#Proto-Slavic

    Example, toponym 79 here:

    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#79

    Which must be compared with the medieval toponyn Meždurečje in Kutmichevitsa:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

    "The area between the rivers Devoll and Osum was known in the Middle Ages as Mezhdurechie."

    #422456

    Anonymous

    Another pre-Slavic toponym that shows EPS *a> LPS o evolution in Slavic is the river Timacus > Timok.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timok_(river)

    Pre-Slavic toponyms that show South Slavic liquid metathesis (CaRC>CorC>CRac) is the island Arba > Rab and the city Scardona > Skradin in Croatia and the river Malva> Mlava in Serbia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scardona
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mlava

    When emperor Aurelian evacuated the supra-Danubian Dacia Traiana, he created a new sub-Danubian Dacia Aureliana, that was divided in a Dacia Ripensis/Malvensis (“Dacia by the Danubian bank”) with Ratiaria as its capital and a Dacia Mediterranea with Serdica (Sofia) as its capital.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia_Aureliana

    Although the term Ripensis is pure Latin (ripa = river bank), the term Malvensis is a hybrid Daco-latin term that contains the daco-moesian word **malva and the latin suffix -ensis-. Procopius also mentions another hybrid Daco-Latin term, the castle Capo Malva in Dardania (Kosovo-Niš region).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ripa#Latin

    In modern Italian Capo Fiume means “a river’s headwater”. So the linguists based on the equations Ripensis = Malvensis and Capo Fiume = Capo Malva have reconstructed the Daco-Mysian word for “river/river bank” **Malva. And indeed the Serbian river name Mlava is the expected south slavic evolution of the reconstructed Daco-Mysian term.

    #422457

    Anonymous

    Early Byzantino-Slavic relations

    When the Slavs were still living above the Danube, they had already developed relations with Byzantium. In Justinian’s reconquista of Italy the Byzantines had already recruited Slavs. Procopius informs us that after some Slavs had successfully completed a task given to them, general Belisarius exchanged a few words with them. About the same period (556 AD), an Antes Slav named Dabragezas (EPS dabra– > LPS dobro-) is mentioned as a Byzantine taxiarch fighting in Lazica.

    #422458

    Anonymous

    The vast majority of Slavs who were settled in Greece were expelled to central Turkey (back then Capadokia) after 1 or 2 centuries, where, they joined Arabic forces in the arabo-byzantine wars.

    during the same period the elit of the empire (which was Greek) colonised the empty areas (were slavs used to live) with Greeks mainly from islands and coasts of mainland.

    The rest of the slavs were assimilated in the Greek population.

    I think that the most important slavic influences in Greece are: possibly the 10% of the population which has dinaric features, a few cultural similarities in the northwestern part of the country (the same time that the biggest part of the country has more similarities with the mediterranean countries, such as Italy),  the slavic words in the language and the last but not least, the slavic toponymes.

    BTW the role of slavs (before their deportation to kapadokia, and replacement of them by Greek islanders) has been overemphasized, because of the so called "chronicle of monemvasia", which is proved to be wrong from many aspects, by modern archaeological and other findings

    #422459

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    BTW the role of slavs (before their deportation to kapadokia, and replacement of them by Greek islanders) has been overemphasized, because of the so called "chronicle of monemvasia", which is proved to be wrong from many aspects, by modern archaeological and other findings

    Well, that's very very very far from the truth.

    Let's see the sources chronologically and see what has actually happened. I divide your post in 3 parts to discuss:

    A) Evidence for the high density of slavic settlement
    B) Byzantine population metathesis and assimilation fo the Slavs

    A) Evidence of Slavic Settlement

    1) A little before 650 AD, Isidore of Seville wrote that during the first years of emperor Herakleios's reign (ca. 614 AD) "Sclavi Graeciam Romanis tulerunt" ("The Slavs have taken Greece from the Romans").

    2) The writer of the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius" described 7th century Thessaloniki as "a Roman island in a slavic sea".

    3) Willibald wrotein his biography that when he was going to Jerusalem from Sicily in 723 AD his ship stopped "ad urbem Manafasiam in Sclavenia terra" ("in the city of Monemvasia in the land of Sclavenia").

    [IMG]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8106/kdkf.png” />

    4) The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

    «Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

    "And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' (=uncivilized) Slavs

    Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

    And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

    «Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

    s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

    "And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"

    5) The Emperor Contantine VI Porphyrogennetos in the «Περί Θεμάτων» wrote about the Peloponnese that:

    «Ἐσθλαβώθη δὲ πᾶσα ἡ χώρα καὶ γέγονε βάρβαρος, ὅτε ὁ λοιμικὸς θάνατος πᾶσαν ἐβόσκετο τὴν οἰκουμένην, ὁπηνίκα Κωνσταντῖνος ὁ τῆς κοπρίας ἐπώνυμος σκῆπτρα τῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων διεῖπεν ἀρχῆς.

    De thematibus II (ed. Bonn. 53, 18)

    "The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine V the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".

    Right after he had wrote that he remembered the Peloponnesian patrician Niketas Rendakios whom the people of Constantinople had described as a "cunning Slavic face" («γαρασδοειδής όψις εσθλαβωμένη»). The term «γαρασδοειδής» is an impromptu utilization of the slavic word gorazd = "valiant, clever", which here is used with the derogatory sense of "cunning, foxy". The Slavist Phaidon Malingoudis has explained the surname Rendakios also as a slavic nickname for "administrator" (he derives it from the proto-slavic verb ręditi (ę = a proto-slavic nasalised vowel pronounced as /en/ that survives in Polish) which means to "determine, administer, set".

    Example:

    Serbo-Croat compound od-rediti:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/odrediti

    And Czech řídit:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%99%C3%ADdit

    http://www.lithoksou.net/p/esthlabothi-de-pasa-i-xora-kai-gegone-barbaros-garasdoeidis-opsis-esthlabomeni-2010

    6) In the late 11th century, the Patriarch Nicholas Grammatikos describes the Slavic colonization of the Peloponnese in a letter to emperor Alexios Komnenos with the words:

    «Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

    "For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

    7) When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.

    [IMG]http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/8443/qeid.png” />

    8) In the first half of the 15th century, two sources testify that there were still Slavic speaking Slavs in the Peloponnese:

    a) Mazaris wrote:

    http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%ABanamiks-geni-en-peloponniso%C2%BB-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

    «Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

    "In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary … "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

    b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

    Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

    "From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

    [img width=700 height=268]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3536/yw3p.png” />

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck

    #422460

    Anonymous

    B) Population Metathesis and 'Byzantinization' of the Slavs

    Althought the modern Greek fairy tale says that "Slavs were exchanged with Greeks" … the only source who speaks about population exchange between the Asiatic themes and the 'Sklavenia' is Theophanes the confessor who says that in ca 810 AD emperor Nicephoros I forced 50.000 Christians (not Greeks, but Christians) from all the Asiatic Themes to go and settle in 'Sklavenia'. Here's an english translation of the paragraph:

    [img width=404 height=700]http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3453/qlr6.png” />

    Although among the immigrants many would have been greek speakers or bilingual in Greek and some other asiatic language (Armenian, Isaurian, Georgian, Persian/Kurdish, Arabic etc), it is interesting that when an ethnic group is mentioned … they are 'naughty' Armenians. That is the basic scope of the population exchange was between the 'naughty' Slavs who tended to collaborate with the Bulgars and the 'naughty' Armenians who tended to collaborate with the Persians and later Arabs. In other words, the loyal Armenians were left in Asia Minor and the loyal Slavs were left in Greece and some assimilated relatively fast, meanwhile others like the ones in Taygetos were only assimilated around 1500 AD.

    Listen to Helene Glykatzi Ahrweiler below from [00:02:23] and watch for about 3 minutes:

    ΒΥΖΑΝΤΙΟ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΠΟΛΙΤΙΣΜΟΣ 04

    From such Armenians originated the "Macedonian"/Armenian dynasty of Byzantium who's founder Basil I as I'll soon say below begun the 'byzantinization' of the Slavs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_dynasty

    The toponyms Αρμενιοί (Peloponnese) and Armensko, Αρμενοχώρι (Florina) also testify to the Armenian settlement. After the first wave of "naughty" Armenians we have a second wave of Mardaites Armenians who were settled in various parts of the empire, mostly in the coastal areas where they formed a short of "anti-Arab" coastguard.

    [IMG]http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8896/q0a7.png” />
    [IMG]http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6326/p3tj.png” />

    The Theme of Hellas was originally established for this purpose: "anti-Arab" coastguards, that's why originally it was only a coastal strip that did not include the predominantly slavic hinterland of the peninsula, although gradually it acquired a substantial depth.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_(theme)

    One of the descendants of Christian Arabs who were transferred to the Peloponnese was Arethas (Al-Harith) of Caesarea who was born in Patra, Peloponnese:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arethas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arethas_of_Caesarea

    Now let's pass to the assimilation process. 'Byzantinization' was a top-down process. It started with the support of pro-Byzantine Slavic archontes. The slavic lands were divided in archonties each one controlled by a pro-Byzantine Slavic Archon. Many seals of such slavic archontes have survived and I will present some here. Along with the pro-slavic archontes, there were Byzantine "charter groups" (influential minorities composed of those natives who had remained and the transferred Christians, that assimilated the surrounding majority just as the english charter group in Ohio managed in a few generations to assimilate the German majority).

    [IMG]http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5643/5j8.png” />
    [IMG]http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/135/cyzx.png” />
    [IMG]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5913/bwkn.png” />

    One of the Slavic archonts recorded in Byzantine history a few years before 800 AD was Akameros/Akamir, the archont of the Velegezites Slavs of Thessaly and Boetia. This pro-Byzanatine slavic group is interesting because it provided Thessaloniki with grain during the Great Slavic Siege of 678 AD, when a coalision of Slavic tribes (Druguvites/Draguvites, Sagudatoi, Strymonitai etc) from the region of Macedonia besieged the city.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akameros

    [IMG]http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/5618/2q59.png” />

    We also have the seal of his predecessor Tihomir, meanwhile the Archont Theodoros of the Bajunites Slavs (who gave Thesprotia it's medieval name Vagenetia) is mentioned around 700 AD as living in nearby Kerkyra/Corfu. These and many other Seals of Slavic archonts (many already with christian names: Peter, Theodoros, John etc) and many still with Slavic names (Akamir, Tihomir, "Dargaskavos" < Dragoslav, "Voidargos" < Vojdrag etc) have been analyzed by Florin Curta here:

    [img width=700 height=431]http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9833/xdec.png” />

    On the other hand, form the Slavs that were transferred in Asia Minor, the most famous one was Thomas the Slav, who has even reached the rank of Commander-in-chief of all Asiatic military units and ended controlling almost the whole of Asia Minor except the Thmes of Opsikion and Armeniakon, when he begun the civil war in order to overthrone the Emperor Michael II. He eventually lost the war because Michael managed to gain the alliance of the Bulgar Khan Omurtag.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Slav

    That there were still many Slavs living in Greece by 1000 AD is evident from the initial decision of Basil the Bulgar-slayer to give religious juristiction to the Bulgarian ex-patriarch/Archibishop of conquered Bulgaria John Debranin over all the land from Naupaktos till Belgrade and from Thessaloniki to Dyrrachium. Later, after the bishops of Thessaloniki, Larissa and Dyrrachium complained because that would put them under a Bulgarian archibishop rather than the Byzantine patriarch, Basil reconsidered and reduced the juristiction of the Bulgarian Archibishop in the Theme of Bulgaria.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Debar
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria_(theme)

    [IMG]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8252/hfyo.png” />

    Now for last but not least, I have left the description by emperor Leo VI the wise in his Tactica, how his father Basil I 'byzantinized' the Slavs of his empire:

    [18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

    English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

    "Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

    #422461

    Anonymous

    ::)

    from 7th to 9th centuries more than 300.000 slavs were expelled from Greece and almost half of them were replaced by Greeks from Asia minor, South italy and the islands. 300.000 for this era was something more than the majority of Slavs inhabiting the country as a whole

    Although among the immigrants many would have been greek speakers or bilingual in Greek and some other asiatic language (Armenian, Isaurian, Georgian, Persian/Kurdish, Arabic etc),

     

    talking about the particular immigration from anatolia (which is only one of the immigrations not the one and only like you claim) the population which was settled can't be that mixed as long as the vast majority of the populous areas of anatolia (such as coasts) were predominantly inhabited by greeks. The kurdish, Georgian, Arabic and Georgian elements were rare to non existed, with Armenians being the only important minority, but still much less populous than Greeks.

    Not to mention that the armenians, who couldn't be more than 10% of the immigrants were mostly not assimilated (the armenian communities in modern Greece dating back to medieval times).

    Anyway

    According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s.[5] However, there is no archaeological evidence indicating Slavic penetration of imperial Byzantine territories before the end of the 6th century. Overall, traces of Slavic culture in Greece are very rare.[6]

    The city of Thessaloniki remained unconquered even after being attacked by the Slavs around 615. The Slavs were eventually defeated, gathered by the Byzantines and placed into segregated communities known as Sclaviniae. During the early 7th century, Constans II made the first mass-expulsions of Slavs from the Greek peninsula to the Balkans and central Asia Minor. Justinian II defeated and destroyed most of the Sclaviniae, and moved as many as 110,000-200,000 Slavs from the Greek peninsula to Bithynia, while he enlisted some 30,000 Slavs in his army.

    The Slavic populations that were placed in these segregated communities were used for military campaigns against the enemies of the Byzantines. In the Peloponnese, more Slavic invaders brought disorder to the western part of the peninsula, while the eastern part remained firmly under Byzantine domination. Empress Irene organised a military campaign which liberated those territories and restored Byzantine rule to the region, but it was not until emperor Nicephorus I's resettlement of some rural areas of Peloponnese with Greek-speakers from southern Italy, that the last trace of Slavic element was eliminated.[8]

    The Slavic communities in Bithynia were destroyed by the Byzantines after General Leontios lost to the Arabs in the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692 as a result of the Slavs having defected to the Arab side.[9]

    the last but not least "και τοις αρχήθεν οικήτορσι αποκαταστήναι τα οικεία παρέσχεν."The first inhabitantsof the country were resettled (probaply he means their ancestors) and took back their houses.

    we have also also to consider the fact that not all native inhabitants immigrated to somewhere else during the invasion, but some were ruled by slavs

    the fact that "Slavs were exchanged with Greeks" is not a Greek fairy tale but a scientific fact is not only verified by the historical sources, but from anthropological studies in Greek population as well.

    In Coon's research in 1939 the armenoid element in the country seems to be rare, if not completely non existed (which corrupts the "massive armenian immigrations" which are not even reffered in the historical sources), the same time  that the predominant slavic types (baltic and dinaric) are rare.

    the predominant racial type is the mediterranean which shows a continuety between the modern and the ancient (not even medieval) population of the country, not much in common between modern and and any slavic population.

    #422462

    Anonymous

    the fact that "Slavs were exchanged with Greeks" is not a Greek fairy tale but a scientific fact.

    Ya right … if you define as "Greeks" the Armenians, the Isaurians, the Kurds/Persians, the Georgians and the christian Arabs and the Thracians that were involved in the population transfer.

    For example do you qualify the Isaurian Tarassikudissa (isaurian for "Tarassis son of Kudis") from Rusumblada as a "Greek" … because when he became emperor he changed to his name to Zeno and renamed his city Zenonopolis?

    Or was the Arab Arethas (Al Harith) a "Greek" or were "Greeks" the whole "Macedonian"/Armenian dynasty and other Armenians like Kourkouas, John Grammaticus or an Armeno-Arab like "Melias"/Mleh "Greek" or the Syrian John of Ephesus who wrote his ecclesiastical history in Syrian.

    Let's take them 1 by 1:

    1) "Arethas"/Al-Harith, a Christian Arab from Patra:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arethas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arethas_of_Caesarea

    2) "Macedonian"/Armenian Dynasty = Armenians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_dynasty

    3) John Tsimiskes and the Kurkuas Clan = Armenians:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tzimisces
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kourkouas

    4) Patriarch John Grammaticus, Armenian, his brother Arsaber had a pure Armenian name.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_John_VII_of_Constantinople

    5) John of Ephesus, a Syrian:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Ephesus

    6) "Melias"/Mleh, Armeno-Arab:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleh

    7) Zeno the Isaurian:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaurians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Zeno

    Are all they Greek ? Because it is with people like these that the city of Sparta/Lakedaimon was refounded.

    [IMG]http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6408/kz4.png” />

    Only in the Peloponnese we have 429 Slavic toponyms. Here's a grill 20×16 = 320 (about 100 less than Vasmer's 429) just to understand what «εσθλαβώθη πᾶσα η χώρα» means:

    [img width=700 height=586]http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/281/xvsd.png” />

    Is Staikos Staikòpoulos from Zatouna among the "Greeks" who came from Asia Minor ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staikos_Staikopoulos

    What does the name "Stayko/Stajko" or the toponym "Zatouna" mean in Greek ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stayko_Stoychev
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Staykov
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niki_Stajkovi%C4%87

    What about Zatouna?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatouna

    Since when do ""Greeks"" from Asia Minor use the slavic composite verb "za-tonuti" = "to sink beneath the water" to name their settlements?

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonuti#Serbo-Croatian

    I was under the impression that only Slavs do so … hence

    "zaton" = "lake,gulf" in Serbo-Croat and the toponyms Zaton, Zatonje around the Salvic world.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zaton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatonje
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatonie

    Did ""Greeks"" from Asia Minor translated the Byzantine custom of hemiseia (female of hemisys = "half") into Polovica (Lakonia)/Srebrovica (Arcadia) ???

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/polovica

    Here's what Phaidon Malingoudis writes about these two in his analysis of the Salvic toponyms of Greece:

    Πολοβίτσα: Κοινότητα του Νομού Λακωνίας, επαρχία Λακεδαίμονος, νότια της Σπάρτης (14). Θα έπρεπε, ως πρώτο δεδομένο, να τονιστεί ότι το σλαβικό αυτό τοπωνύμιο δεν εμφανίζεται μεμονωμένο, αλλά υπάρχει σε μια περιοχή, στη ΝΔ Λακωνία, το μικροτοπωνυμικό της οποίας φέρει εμφανή τα ίχνη σλαβικής εγκατάστασης κατά το Μεσαίωνα (15). Παρόλο που δεν υπάρχουν δυσκολίες να ετυμολογηθεί το τοπωνύμιο, τόσο από πλευράς φωνητικής όσο και μορφολογίας από το σλαβικο polь= «μισό», παραμένει η σημασιολογική πλευρά σκοτεινή(16), αν δε λάβει υπόψη του κανείς τους κανόνες που διέπουν τις γεωργικές σχέσεις κατά τη βυζαντινή περιόδο: Ο γεωργός, ο οποίος δεν ήταν σε θέση να καλλιεργήσει ο ίδιος ολόκληρη τη γη που του ανήκε, μπορούσε να νοικιάσει ένα μέρος της σε έναν άλλο ακτήμονα. Ο δεύτερος ανελάμβανε την υποχρέωση να αποδίδει, ως ενοίκιο, το μισό της σοδειάς του. Από τη διαδεδομένη αυτή πρακτική στη βυζαντινή επαρχία (που ονομάζεται στις νομικές πηγές ημισεία, ο δε ακτήμων ενοικιαστής ημισειαστής) (17) είναι προφανές ότι προήλθε και το συγκεκριμένο τοπωνύμιο. Χαρακτηριστικό για τη συμβίωση των δύο διαφορετικών γλωσσικών φορέων (ελληνοφώνων και σλαβοφώνων) στη βυζαντινή επαρχία είναι το δεδομένο της μετάφρασης του όρου στα σλαβικά. Σαφής ένδειξη ότι οι Σλάβοι, πριν ακόμα απωλέσουν τη γλωσσική τους ταυτότητα, είχαν ήδη ενταχθεί στο βυζαντινό σύστημα και στη δικαιική πρακτική των ελληνόφωνων γειτόνων τους.

    Σεμπροβίτσα: Μικροτοπωνύμιο του χωριού Βυτίνα στην Αρκαδία (18). Όπως είναι προφανές από τα δύο επιθήματα ov-ica, πρόκειται για τοπωνύμιο που σχηματίστηκε, σύμφωνα με τους κανόνες της σλαβικής μορφολογίας, από το ουσιαστικό sebrь, έναν τεχνικό όρο, ο οποίος, από τα σλαβικά, πέρασε στις υπόλοιπες βαλκανικές γλώσσες με τη σημασία: «αγρότης που αποδίδει τη μισή σοδειά στον ιδιοκτήτη της γης» (19). Το σλαβικό δάνειο αυτό (σέμπρος) έχει περάσει σε πολλές νεοελληνικές διαλέκτους, αλλά και στην Κοινή Νεοελληνική (20). Η περίπτωση του τοπωνυμίου αυτού παρουσιάζει μια σημασιολογική αναλογία με προηγούμενο: Sebrovica = «η γη του ημισιαστού» και τεκμηριώνει μια αντικειμενική πραγματικότητα, ότι δηλαδή ο θεσμός του ημισιαστού, που συναντούμε στο κωδικοποιημένο βυζαντινό δίκαιο (Νόμος Γεωργικός) υπήρχε και στο εθιμικό δίκαιο των Σλάβων (21).

    So rather than making up stories that "300.000 Slavs were replaced by ""Greeks"" from Anatolia" … you better start asking yourself … are you just 'slavophobic' or equally 'Albanophobic' and 'Vlahophobic' or even 'Frangophobic' and 'Cumanophobic' ???

    Thessaly was known as «Μεγάλη Βλαχία» ("Greater Vlachia"), Western Sterea was was known as «Μικρά Βλαχία» ("Lesser Vlachia") and the Pindus highlands were known as «Άνω Βλαχία» ("Upper Vlachia").

    Did the Byzantines exchanged only Slavs according to you or they also exchanged Vlachs?

    The Byzantine Governor of the Theme of Hellas, Kekaumenos wrote about the Vlachs of Hellas in the 11th century:

    [IMG]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1783/hno4.png” />

    The Jewish Traveller Benjamin De Tudella, wrote in the mid-12th century:

    [IMG]http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5143/vwht.png” />

    [IMG]http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3752/d2l6.png” />

    Always in the late 12th century Kontostephanos was hunting "barbarian Vlachs who payed no taxes" through the mountains of Greece:

    [IMG]http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3552/q1rs.png” />

    Next, the Cumans. Emperor Ioannes Vatatzes 'byzintinized' some 5000 Cuman warriors along with their families (that is roughly 20.000 Cumans) and settled them in various parts of the Empire. Among such Cumans was "Syrgiannes"/Sytzigan Palaiologos.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrgiannes_Palaiologos

    Later, the Serbian king Milutin gave 2000 Cuman warriors (probably from Kumanovo, which then he controlled) and families (that is other 8000 Cumans) to the Byzantine emperor Andronikos, who first settled them in Thrace, but later, because of mistrust and fear of possible colalboration with the Mongols and the Bulgarians they were settled in the islands of Thasos, Lemnos and Lesbos.

    The vast majority of the troops who liberated Constantinople from the Franks in 1261 under Alexios Strategopoulos were in fact Cumans. Here's what the byzantinist Mark Bartousis says about the Cuman assimilation:

    [img width=700 height=539]http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4572/zq56.png” />

    Then we have the "Franks" (western "Latins" of the forth crusade). The children of mixed marriages were known as "Gasmouloi" ("the mule-children") and as a French source of the period says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasmouloi

    The term gasmoulos itself is of unknown etymology and first appeared in the second half of the 13th century. It is, however, not unlikely that it has some relation with the Latin word mulus, "mule".[2] Although it was generally used to refer to children of these mixed unions, it more specifically designated the children of a Byzantine woman and a Latin (often Venetian) father.[3] The Gasmouloi were socially ostracized and distrusted by both the Byzantines and the Latins, who distrusted their ambiguous identity. In the words of a French treatise of ca. 1330, "They present themselves as Greeks to Greeks and Latins to Latins, being all things to everyone…"

    At the end we have the Albanian migrations.

    When describing Epirus around 1400, Isidore of Kiev writes that only the coast and the major 2 cities of Epirus have 'Hellenic' culture. The rest is inhabited by barbarians (Vlachs, Slavs, Albanians) and he names the Albanians because they were the less civilized of the barbarians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidore_of_Kiev

    [IMG]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/817/mpoq.png” />

    In the mid-14th century Despot Theodore of Morea (Peloponnese) accepted 10.000 Albanian families (40.000 persons?) in Peloponnese in order to counteract the depopulation caused by the Black Death plague.

    And try to talk about the fairy tale of "most Slavs being exchanged with "Greeks" "???

    Why would the Byzantines wanna exchange only the Slavs with ""Greeks""?? Why not the Vlachs, the Albanians, the "Latins" or the Cumans??? They never considered Greece to be an important region of their Empire and they've always considered Greece to be a cultural backwater. Michael Choniates in the late 12th century, when he arrived from Constantinople to Athens said he that he was living among a "barbarian plebue with no culture" («βάρβαρος όχλος με άμουσα ήθη») and after 3 years in Athens "he was barbarized" («χρόνιος εν Αθήναις βεβαρβάρομαι»). He defines Greece as «κατώτατη εσχατιά» (double meaning: "southernmost fringe of the empire"/"most culturally inferior place"). In the entire region of Attica he could not find a single book to read. He had to travel to a monastery in Kea in order to find books to read.

    [IMG]http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6636/tkwq.png” />

    http://ketivasilakou.blogspot.it/2013/02/12.html
    http://www.tovima.gr/culture/article/?aid=324009

    Δεν εννοούν τίποτε άλλο. “Εσείς οι Βυζαντίου πολίτες” γράφει ο Μιχαήλ Χωνιάτης από την Αθήνα, όπου ήρθε ως μητροπολίτης, στον αδελφό του στην Κωνσταντινούπολη. Διαμαρτύρεται ο Χωνιάτης στον αδελφό του, που ήταν πρωθυπουργός, γιατί οι τρυφεροί πολίτες της Κωνσταντινουπόλεως τον έστειλαν σε έναν τόπο όπου δεν έβρισκε ένα βιβλίο. Κι έπρεπε να πηγαίνει στο μοναστήρι της Κέας για να βρει».

    The Greatest Byzantine poet John Kyriotes the "Geometer" wrote about Greece in the lat 10th century:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Geometres

    http://ardalion.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/barbar/

    «Οὐ βαρβάρων γῆν, ἀλλ᾽ ἰδὼν Ἑλλάδα,

    Ἐβαρβαρώθης καὶ λόγον καὶ τρόπον

    Ἰωάννης Γεωμέτρης (10ος αι. μ.Χ.), Carmina varia, 33. MPG 106, 922.

    "Not some barbarian land, but after you get to know Hellas,
    you'll get barbarized in both speech and manners
    "

    In John Skylitzes' words, the European/Balkanian part of the empire was the "tail", meanwhile Asia Minor was the the "head" of a single body. That is the Empire could live without the Balkans, but could not survive without Asia Minor. His words proved to be prophetic. Almost a century after the loss of most of Asia Minor to the Seljuks, the empire fell to the 'Latins' in the 4th Crusade of 1204. After the recovery of Constantinople in 1261, the empire was just a shadow of its former glory.

    [IMG]http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3014/ji36.png” />

    #422463

    Anonymous

    I forgot to present the source about King Milutin’s 2000 Cuman warriors and families who ended in the islands of Thasos, Lemnos and Lesbos:

    #422464

    Anonymous

    Despite it smells like trolling (after reading about "vlachs albanians and cumans who i have no idea what they are doing in a thread about slavs) I think the only thing i have to do is to copy paste my previous post, and i am sorry to disapoint you, but genetics, linguistics, geography and anthropology are against your claims ;):

    from 7th to 9th centuries more than 300.000 slavs were expelled from Greece and almost half of them were replaced by Greeks from Asia minor, South italy and the islands. 300.000 for this era was something more than the majority of Slavs inhabiting the country as a whole

      Although among the immigrants many would have been greek speakers or bilingual in Greek and some other asiatic language (Armenian, Isaurian, Georgian, Persian/Kurdish, Arabic etc),

    talking about the particular immigration from anatolia (which is only one of the immigrations not the one and only like you claim) the population which was settled can't be that mixed as long as the vast majority of the populous areas of anatolia (such as coasts) were predominantly inhabited by greeks. The kurdish, Georgian, Arabic and Georgian elements were rare to non existed, with Armenians being the only important minority, but still much less populous than Greeks.

    Not to mention that the armenians, who couldn't be more than 10% of the immigrants were mostly not assimilated (the armenian communities in modern Greece dating back to medieval times).

    Anyway

        According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s.[5] However, there is no archaeological evidence indicating Slavic penetration of imperial Byzantine territories before the end of the 6th century. Overall, traces of Slavic culture in Greece are very rare.[6]

        The city of Thessaloniki remained unconquered even after being attacked by the Slavs around 615. The Slavs were eventually defeated, gathered by the Byzantines and placed into segregated communities known as Sclaviniae. During the early 7th century, Constans II made the first mass-expulsions of Slavs from the Greek peninsula to the Balkans and central Asia Minor. Justinian II defeated and destroyed most of the Sclaviniae, and moved as many as 110,000-200,000 Slavs from the Greek peninsula to Bithynia, while he enlisted some 30,000 Slavs in his army.

        The Slavic populations that were placed in these segregated communities were used for military campaigns against the enemies of the Byzantines. In the Peloponnese, more Slavic invaders brought disorder to the western part of the peninsula, while the eastern part remained firmly under Byzantine domination. Empress Irene organised a military campaign which liberated those territories and restored Byzantine rule to the region, but it was not until emperor Nicephorus I's resettlement of some rural areas of Peloponnese with Greek-speakers from southern Italy, that the last trace of Slavic element was eliminated.[8]

        The Slavic communities in Bithynia were destroyed by the Byzantines after General Leontios lost to the Arabs in the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692 as a result of the Slavs having defected to the Arab side.[9]

    the last but not least "και τοις αρχήθεν οικήτορσι αποκαταστήναι τα οικεία παρέσχεν."The first inhabitantsof the country were resettled (probaply he means their ancestors) and took back their houses.

    we have also to consider the fact that not all native inhabitants immigrated to somewhere else during the invasion, but some were ruled by slavs

    the fact that "Slavs were exchanged with Greeks" is not a Greek fairy tale but a scientific fact is not only verified by the historical sources, but from anthropological studies in Greek population as well.

    In Coon's research in 1939 the armenoid element in the country seems to be rare, if not completely non existed (which corrupts the "massive armenian immigrations" which are not even reffered in the historical sources), the same time  that the predominant slavic types (baltic and dinaric) are rare.

    the predominant racial type is the mediterranean which shows a continuety between the modern and the ancient (not even medieval) population of the country, not much in common between modern and and any slavic population.

    Ya right … if you define as "Greeks" the Armenians, the Isaurians, the Kurds/Persians, the Georgians and the christian Arabs and the Thracians that were involved in the population transfer.

    I do not define them as Greeks, but the problem is that they almost didn't exist, in the particular case (asides armenians)

    Only in the Peloponnese we have 429 Slavic toponyms.

    with the rest 90% being Greek. In both pelloponese and the rest of the country, before most of Slavs be expelled to asia and Balkans, they added some toponymes and the Greeks who returned or colonised the country adopted those toponymes.This doesn't mean something, in 15th century only in Taygetos there were slavic settlements recorded, the rest of slavs were assimilated by the Greek majority or expelled

    Staikos Staikòpoulos

    are the rest of 2.000.000 pelloponesians living allover the world whose name has not any connection with Slavic language among the slavs who live from the baltic sea to Bulgaria?

    So rather than making up stories that "300.000 Slavs were replaced by ""Greeks"" from Anatolia" … you better start asking yourself … are you just 'slavophobic' or equally 'Albanophobic' and 'Vlahophobic' or even 'Frangophobic' and 'Cumanophobic' ???

    rather than making stories, i just post scientific facts proving that more than 300.000 Slavs were replaced mostly by Greeks, it's you on the other who can not prove the opposite, although keep posting and posting for a period which passed, and its people were expelled, and life continues.

    As for being "phobic", i do not confuse science and history with emotions, the way you personaly do. ;)

    For that reason you keep posting and posting emotionally things, being unable to face the fact that "numbers" always disagree with what you want to think

    you try to deny something that as i posted scientists have proved since early 20th century, and keep proving:that people of the country have anthopologicaly not changed since the antiquity.

    Why would the Byzantines wanna exchange only the Slavs with ""Greeks""??

    what a funny question.. ;DI suppose because Byzantines were Greek themselves?the only sure is that they exchanged most of them, no matters about the reason.

    Why not the Vlachs, the Albanians, the "Latins" or the Cumans???

    Because the i suppose the latins (who immigrated to ionian islands and Italy after the ottoman invasion) were the new rulers of the country and couldn't exchange them?
    Because Vlachs were the new rulers of thessaly (the way Latins did for other parts of the country)?

    your question is like "why iraqis didn't exchange americans in 2003"?

    I forgot to present the source about King Milutin's 2000 Cuman warriors and families who ended in the islands of Thasos, Lemnos and Lesbos:

    then i wonder why cumans didn't leave any influence (anthopological, genetic, cultural or linguistic).

    #436623

    Anonymous

    Interesting topic.
    I will add some information here.

    Many slavic tribes were present in Greece, from the 6th century and on. The ones in southern and central Greece are mostly related to Croats, Montenegrins or Bosnians and the ones in the northern parts of Greece are mostly related to Bulgarians, Macedonians and Serbs. You can understand that from the way they pronounce some words (iekavian – ekavian effect etc).
    The Slavs of Greece were not enemies to Greeks, as some people want to say. They were actually allies against the anatolian Byzantines, that had caused many genocides to the population of Greece (the last and greatest of all was at the year 727, following a greek revolution that was supported by the Pope). The Byzantines brought Albanians or Vlachs in order to replace the population that fled to the mountains or to the “Sklavinies” and they took Greece from Pope and gave it to the Patriarch of Constantinople. And this is one main reason for the bad relations between East and West.

    Here comes a map that shows the cities that had a representative in the Byzantine “Ecumenical Council” of the year 787 (60 years after the great greek revolution and the genocide), that was held in Nicaea of Anatolia (nowadays Turkey). As you can see, the greatest parts of Greece did not send any representative, which means they were out of the control of the Byzantines. The image is from the book of Warren Treadgold

    “A History of the Byzantine State and Society”.

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