• This topic has 9 voices and 21 replies.
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 22 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #346601

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    friend don't get ugly for no reason! It's clear that this conceited Greek halfwit is nowhere near the knowledge to offer an opinion, let alone to speak on this matter over noted scholars who have dedicated their lives to history :(. I never seen him to dissect any argument in a logical fashion, he just go off a tangent all the time, and sometimes even embark on holier-than-thou tirades like he is privy to some unaltered, unexplored truth that only he is enlightened enough to decipher it. The sooner he realises that, the sooner the average for intelligence rises. This obtuse mentally simpleton is that type of person that goes through an entire book and comes away learning nothing from it. I've brought up countless pages from his books proving him wrong again and again. However, let's hear again his enlightening theory about how Albanians just sprung up overnight and sprawled all over the Balkans ;D!

    Stop deleting this Serb and Croat "moderators"!
    This is not breaking ANY forum rules

    Leave Ace along! You are as much Albanian as Ace is Greek!
    No Greek in this worlds knows so much about the different South Slavic languages and no Greek would have any reason to "waste" his time with such things as the history and linguistics of South Slavs.
    You are a Slavic Macedonian and you never proved Ace wrong! Your "logic" is as bad as Antoljak's and the other anti-Greek anti-Bulgarian anti-Albanian pro-Macedonian "scientists".
    Btw I see people are allowed in here to start threads such as Montenegrin nations doesn't exist, they are Serbs; Ukrainians are Russians; Macedonians are Serbs plus tons of racist remarks aimed at non-Slavic nations. Well then I say this:
    "Macedonian" "language"/"ethnicity" doesn't exist: it is neither Macedonian since (ancient) Macedonia lies mostly in Greece, it could be Peonian/Dardanian unless it were Bulgarian.
    Torlak "Serbian" dialects are actually Bulgarian. There are more scientific grounds to call them Bg than Serbian, second options is independent language thats is neither Bg, nor Sb. For those who acknowledge the existance of a Macedonian Slavic language they must be regarded as Macedonian dialects from Serbia. They are more similar to standard western Bg ("Macedonian") than to eastern Bg and much more similar to western Bg than to Serbian: words like ubav (WBg=ubav, EBg=hubav, Sb=lep) beautiful, razbira (he/she understands) are clearly Bg. The absence of the phonem h contrary to standard EBg and to Serbian (in Serbian it has been re-introduced in the 19th century) but identical to WBg, the presence of aorist and imperfect (in Serbian only 2-3 verbs are still used in aorist, very rarely, the imperfect is dead and buried a long time ago), just like in Bg (W and E), the presence of "-l" just like in Bg ( Serbian rekao-EBg rekyl ) and many other traits clearly show this is a Bg dialect or a Macedonian dialect. Looks like the codification of "Macedonian" "language" done by Serbs and Vlachs has turned against the Serbs. Unfortunately no "linguist" in Skopye will ever dare to claim Torlak dialects from the Serbs since the Serbs are their masters. Looks like even the Serfs (Serbs) have serfs ("Macedonians").
    However "Macedonian" "linguists" do claim Goran dialects (Torlak dialects spoken by Muslim Slavs/Bulgarians) as their own despite of the fact that most the Gorans do not identify with "Macedonians" and the fact that these are actually Serb dialects (they could be a bit more Macedonian than the Torlak ones but they difference is quite insignificant).
    The same thing with Croats and Kajkavian dialects. They are either Slovenian (true) or an independent language, intermidiary between Serbo-Croatian and Slovene (yeah right) or (Serbo-)Croatian dialects (in your dreams, Croat "linguists"  :-* )

    #432803

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Stop deleting this Serb and Croat "moderators"!

    Well, "Bulgarian" members from Romania, please behave. You are allready verry close to permabann.

    Quote:

    This is not breaking ANY forum rules

    Its not up to you to decide.

    Quote:
    Leave Ace along! You are as much Albanian as Ace is Greek!

    Eh?

    Quote:
    No Greek in this worlds knows so much about the different South Slavic languages and no Greek would have any reason to "waste" his time with such things as the history and linguistics of South Slavs.
    You are a Slavic Macedonian and you never proved Ace wrong! Your "logic" is as bad as Antoljak's and the other anti-Greek anti-Bulgarian anti-Albanian pro-Macedonian "scientists".

    Again: "Eh?"

    Quote:
    Btw I see people are allowed in here to start threads such as Montenegrin nations doesn't exist, they are Serbs; Ukrainians are Russians; Macedonians are Serbs plus tons of racist remarks aimed at non-Slavic nations. Well then I say this:
    "Macedonian" "language"/"ethnicity" doesn't exist: it is neither Macedonian since (ancient) Macedonia lies mostly in Greece, it could be Peonian/Dardanian unless it were Bulgarian.

    You are not allowed to use slurs and insults. You could state your perosnla beliefs in polite manner.

    Quote:
    Torlak "Serbian" dialects are actually Bulgarian.

    Hm, not quite.

    Quote:
    There are more scientific grounds to call them Bg than Serbian, second options is independent language thats is neither Bg, nor Sb. For those who acknowledge the existance of a Macedonian Slavic language they must be regarded as Macedonian dialects from Serbia. They are more similar to standard western Bg ("Macedonian") than to eastern Bg and much more similar to western Bg than to Serbian: words like ubav (WBg=ubav, EBg=hubav, Sb=lep) beautiful, razbira (he/she understands) are clearly Bg.

    And there are numerous difference in vocabulary with Western Bulgrian.

    Quote:
    The absence of the phonem h contrary to standard EBg and to Serbian (in Serbian it has been re-introduced in the 19th century) but identical to WBg,

    So if it's absent in Serbian and its absent in Western Bulgarian, how it tells us anything? ;D

    Quote:
    the presence of aorist and imperfect (in Serbian only 2-3 verbs are still used in aorist, very rarely, the imperfect is dead and buried a long time ago),

    Eh, imperfect is still used same as aorist in Serbian. Take for example Serbian translation New Testament. Its full of both. But do practical ecxpetiment. Throw words: slušah, pođoh, nosijah, htedoh, mišljah, donesoh etc trought Google search.
    Anyway, since you are so intersted in grammar, tell me where is declension in Bulgarian? Or numeral congruency?

    Quote:
    just like in Bg (W and E), the presence of "-l" just like in Bg ( Serbian rekao-EBg rekyl ) and many other traitsclearly show this is a Bg dialect or a Macedonian dialect.

    But funny thing is no "presence of -l". (I understand you are refering to lack of l vocalisation). Southern Moravian dialects have l vocalisation. It does not end as -o, but -ja (radija, bija, videja).

    Quote:
    Looks like the codification of "Macedonian" "language" done by Serbs and Vlachs has turned against the Serbs.

    Ha ha ha ha. No.

    #432804

    Anonymous

    1. First of all I was not addressing you, but kwo the so-called Albanian
    2. I am half-Bg half-Ro from Romania and I do consider myself Romanian. Any complaints?
    3. I have already refered you to Perun the administrator, for deleting my posts, that's why it now looks like I was addressing you, instead of kwo, you have deleted my previous post.
    4. I see Serbs here are allowed to deny the existence of Montenegrin and Slavic Macedonian nations, insult everyone (especially Bg and non-Slavs) and so on. You are not entitled to decide who is to break the rules unpunished and who isn't
    5. Lack of "h" phonem is commont to Macedonian and Torlak and some West Bulgarian. Most East Bulgarian have this phonem (not all though). In this case Standard/Eastern Bulgarian and Serbian are opposed to Macedonian and Torlak dialects.
    6. Most Torlak dialects have "-l" instead of "-o" in the so-called "l-participle".
    7. Who cares aorist and imperfect existed in the past in Serbian too? In the past there was only one Slavic proto-language, that doesn't mean all current languages are dialects of the same language (different codifications of the same language like in the case of Norwegian, Bulgarian and Croat – chakavski and sthokavski). Most of the "numerous" differences between Torlak and Bulgarian are due to the recent influence of Serb language, after the Serbization of those regions (in Pirot area people still considered themselves Bulgarian in 1878 when they become Serb citizens, Kiril Zivkovic is the first codifier of New Bulgarian (old Bg="Old Church Slavonic"), a kind of west Bg Pulevski. It's true his codification was replaced by another but that was also the case with Pulevski's. Similarily many of the Serbisms in Macedonian date after 1912, actually 99% of the new words in Macedonian are either Serbian words adopted to Macedonian phonetics or loan-translations from Serbian.
    Still there are many typically Bulgarian words: vlijanie, vnimanie (both of these also present in Russian), razbira, (h)ubav. Many Bulgarian words have gone archaic or obsolete and now they are prefering Serb synonyms or pure dialectalisms: sobitie (nastan), strana (zemja) and so on. It's the same case: in the past Macedonian used to be more Bulgarian vocabularywise, just like Serbian used to be more Bulgarian (presence of aorist and imperfect) so, no matter how far one goes in the past, Bulgarian and Macedonian are still much more similar than Macedonian and Serbian.
    So yes, Torlak dialects are definitely Macedonian, not Bulgarian and definitely not Serbian and the "genial" codification of some west bulgarian mixed dialect (a mixture of different west-bg dialects and a mixture of bg and sb) has actually turned against its codifiers (the Serb ones at least, the Vlach ones are obviously excluded from this)

    #432805

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. First of all I was not addressing you, but kwo the so-called Albanian

    Rlly?

    Quote:
    Stop deleting this Serb and Croat "moderators"!

    You did adress me.

    Quote:
    2. I am half-Bg half-Ro from Romania and I do consider myself Romanian. Any complaints?

    Yes, please moderate your behavior here in accordance with forum rules. Otherwise you will get banned.

    Quote:
    3. I have already refered you to Perun the administrator, for deleting my posts, that's why it now looks like I was addressing you, instead of kwo, you have deleted my previous post.

    You are free to do so. But I deleted lot of off topic, from you, from kwo and Ace. I do not discriminate spammers on national and political lines.

    Quote:
    4. I see Serbs here are allowed to deny the existence of Montenegrin and Slavic Macedonian nations, insult everyone (especially Bg and non-Slavs) and so on.

    Bulgarians here usualy den existance of Macedonian nation. As far as they are not breaing forum rules doing so, nobody of moderators will take penalties against them. If you dont like Slavorum, leave it.

    Quote:
    You are not entitled to decide who is to break the rules unpunished and who isn't

    Yes I am. That's moderator's job.

    Quote:
    5. Lack of "h" phonem is commont to Macedonian and Torlak and some West Bulgarian.

    And entire Serbian, except of standard which etimologicaly reintroduced it. But verry few people do use. Anyway, Standard Bulgarian also reintroduced it, for same reasons. For foreign words and for etimological clarity.

    Quote:
    6. Most Torlak dialects have "-l" instead of "-o" in the so-called "l-participle".

    There is no l participle. Nobody called it in that way. It's working verbal adjective, not participle. And none of South Moravian subdialects has -l from in singular of masculine. Unless you could prove your points stop making them.

    Quote:
    7. Who cares aorist and imperfect existed in the past in Serbian too?

    It still exist and it's still in use. Fact you dont know Serbian is obvious. So shut up.

    Quote:
    Most of the "numerous" differences between Torlak and Bulgarian are due to the recent influence of Serb language, after the Serbization of those regions

    Hehe. But why do they have cases? Its not just problem of vocabulary. Grammar is closer to Serbian than to Bulgarian. 

    Quote:
    (in Pirot area people still considered themselves Bulgarian in 1878 when they become Serb citizens, Kiril Zivkovic is the first codifier of New Bulgarian (old Bg="Old Church Slavonic"), a kind of west Bg Pulevski. It's true his codification was replaced by another but that was also the case with Pulevski's.

    Kiril Živković was also Serbian priest and bishop and Serbian political worker. Stop using him so hard ;D He was not quite Bulgarian Bulgairan.

    Quote:

    Similarily many of the Serbisms in Macedonian date after 1912, actually 99% of the new words in Macedonian are either Serbian words adopted to Macedonian phonetics or loan-translations from Serbian.
    Still there are many typically Bulgarian words: vlijanie, vnimanie (both of these also present in Russian), razbira, (h)ubav. Many Bulgarian words have gone archaic or obsolete and now they are prefering Serb synonyms or pure dialectalisms: sobitie (nastan), strana (zemja) and so on. It's the same case: in the past Macedonian used to be more Bulgarian vocabularywise, just like Serbian used to be more Bulgarian (presence of aorist and imperfect) so, no matter how far one goes in the past, Bulgarian and Macedonian are still much more similar than Macedonian and Serbian.

    Quote:
    So yes, Torlak dialects are definitely Macedonian, not Bulgarian and definitely not Serbian

    You base that bold statement on what exactly?

    Ok, wantshce, now if you want to start talk about South Moravian dialects do it elsewhere please. This is about liquid metathesis. Google what it is. And then return to participate.

    #432806

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    You base what bold statement on what exactly?

    Ok, wantshce, now if you want to start talk about South Moravian dialects do it elsewhere please. This is about liquid metathesis. Google what it is. And then return to participate.

    1. You deleted kwo1's post and therefore my reply seems to be addressed to your post, not to his (which no longer exists). If you are a moderator delete all Serbs' postings saying Montenegro nation doesn't exist.
    2. here is the wikipedia page for Torlak dialects:
    pekyl (bg) = pecel (mk) = pekal, pekl (Torlak) = pekao (Sb)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect

    It is obvious you have no idea about Torlak dialects.
    3. Aorist and imperfect are dead in everyday Sb language: they are both replaced by what Bg grammars call undetermined past tense (Present Perfect in English with "to be" as auxiliary, not "to have").
    4. No Torlak dialect has all 6 cases of Serbian nouns (that's right six, Serb nouns have 6, since locative=dative for all nouns, Russian also has six, it lacks vocative). They have a maximum of 5. Bulgarian has a maximum of 2 (nominative and vocative).
    Aorist and imperfect are used extensively, in Serbian they are dead.
    So their grammar is definitely not Serbian, they have definite articles (most of them) which no other Slavic language possesses, and so on.
    Kiril Zivkovic was the first codifier of New Bulgarian language, he called it Simple Bulgarian (prost bugarski) in his native Torlak dialect.
    If you don't want to talk about Torlak dialects you shouldn't have replied to me contradicting me. Now you want to silence me, after you have contradicted me with your "arguments" so that I cannot show how "valuable" they are. Nice behaviour. Worthy of a Serb.

    #432807

    Anonymous

    Ok wantshe you obviously have no clue when moderator tell you to stop off-topic you do it.
    Now
    1) I will split topic.
    2) Any further comment here about anything except liquid methathesis and you are done with Slavorum.

    #432808

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    1. You deleted kwo1's post and therefore my reply seems to be addressed to your post, not to his (which no longer exists).

    You are not allowed to comment policy of this forum. Sorry, but no discussion on it.

    Quote:

    If you are a moderator delete all Serbs' postings saying Montenegro nation doesn't exist.

    You are not allowed to prescribe what other members, moderators or not should think. Any further comment on this is not deirable.

    Quote:

    2. here is the wikipedia page for Torlak dialects:
    pekyl (bg) = pecel (mk) = pekal, pekl (Torlak) = pekao (Sb)

    Its about syllabic l. But also funny thing, article which is taken as source does not exist on. Also, I understand "Torlakian" and you will never, I absolutley repat never find "пекал" form. From Serbian Wikipedia:
    http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82#.D0.93.D0.BB.D0.B0.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.BB.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.B0_.D0.B2.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.BC.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B0

    Perfect is same as in Standard Serbian except in third person…

    Quote:

    So wrong article on WIkipedia, priceless ;D You should show me sombody from there using it. Some literary work, some papers, something ;)

    Quote:
    It is obvious you have no idea about Torlak dialects.

    Wantsche, I red folk songs from there. I had grammar classes about it. I was there, I had those people as roomamtes on University.
    On other hand, you know about it only from Wikipedia articles. What do you think who knows more of two of us?

    Quote:
    3. Aorist and imperfect are dead in everyday Sb language:

    No it is not. You want to teach me about my native language which you dont speak for start? Interesting.

    Quote:

    they are both replaced by what Bg grammars call undetermined past tense (Present Perfect in English with "to be" as auxiliary, not "to have").

    Well, honestly, you and Bg grammars have no clue abut Serbian. Could you and Bg grammars cite example of such undetermined past tense?
    Aorist is rarely used now, but its same in Niš and Belgrade. Tough, ordinary perfect is used.

    Quote:

    4. No Torlak dialect has all 6 cases of Serbian nouns (that's right six, Serb nouns have 6, since locative=dative for all nouns, Russian also has six, it lacks vocative). They have a maximum of 5. Bulgarian has a maximum of 2 (nominative and vocative).

    So 5 is closer to 6 or 2?

    Quote:
    Aorist and imperfect are used extensively, in Serbian they are dead.

    Ok, wantshce, unless you can prove they are dead, you better to shut up. Otherwise you are just bickering.

    Quote:

    So their grammar is definitely not Serbian,

    I would say:
    Grammar is definitley not Bulgarian. There is no analytic declension. There is congruency, no Bulgarian phonetic…

    Quote:

    they have definite articles (most of them) which no other Slavic language possesses, and so on.

    Err, thing is they dont have it. Please ilustrate in on some example. ;D Some book, some folk song anything will do.

    Quote:
    If you don't want to talk about Torlak dialects you shouldn't have replied to me contradicting me.

    If you want to speak about those dialects, you should do a bit better than Wikipedia. IE show me concrete examples. 

    Quote:
    Now you want to silence me, after you have contradicted me with your "arguments" so that I cannot show how "valuable" they are. Nice behaviour. Worthy of a Serb.

    Well, wantche. Have nice rest from Slavorum. I told you please do not use insults and slurs, but you want this way. All your messages will be moderated from now on.

    #432809

    Anonymous

    Not only pekl and pekal do exist (you said they have "pecija" (?) instead of "pekao" definite article does also exist:
    Here is the song:

    Magla padnala v dolina
    dolina = it should've been doline, dolinu whatever in Serbian
    padnala = not pala

    BILJA KRSTIĆ – Magla padnala – The fog came down

    Magla padnala v dolina
    Od njuma se ništo ne vidi
    Samo eden grm zelen, grm zelen
    Pod njija mi sedi terziče
    Terziče mlado, komšiče

    Terziče mlado, komšiče, terziče!
    Da mi sašijes elečeto
    So aršin da go ne meriš
    So noški da go ne režeš
    So igla da go ne bodeš
    Od oko da go sašiješ

    Božano momo, ubava Božano
    Će ti sašijem elečeto
    Al da mi umesiš pogača
    Kroz trepke brašno da seješ
    So solzi da go zamesiš
    Na grudi da go razviješ
    Sos dusa da go ispeces

    eden (Mk form), not jedan (2 differences from Sb)
    eleceTO = definite article, instead of jelece (you said there is no definite article)
    elece, not Jelece
    so solzi = not sA suzama or whatever
    nominative plural solzi, not suze (2 differences)
    so + nominative = not instrumental or whatever
    Obvious Macedonian dialect.

    1. You deleted kwo1's post and therefore my reply seems to be addressed to your post, not to his (which no longer exists). If you are a moderator delete all Serbs' postings saying Montenegro nation doesn't exist.
    2. here is the wikipedia page for Torlak dialects:
    pekyl (bg) = pecel (mk) = pekal, pekl (Torlak) = pekao (Sb)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect

    It is obvious you have no idea about Torlak dialects.
    3. Aorist and imperfect are dead in everyday Sb language: they are both replaced by what Bg grammars call undetermined past tense (Present Perfect in English with "to be" as auxiliary, not "to have").
    4. No Torlak dialect has all 6 cases of Serbian nouns (that's right six, Serb nouns have 6, since locative=dative for all nouns, Russian also has six, it lacks vocative). They have a maximum of 5. Bulgarian has a maximum of 2 (nominative and vocative).
    Aorist and imperfect are used extensively, in Serbian they are dead.
    So their grammar is definitely not Serbian, they have definite articles (most of them) which no other Slavic language possesses, and so on.
    Kiril Zivkovic was the first codifier of New Bulgarian language, he called it Simple Bulgarian (prost bugarski) in his native Torlak dialect.
    If you don't want to talk about Torlak dialects you shouldn't have replied to me contradicting me. Now you want to silence me, after you have contradicted me with your "arguments" so that I cannot show how "valuable" they are. Nice behaviour. Worthy of a Serb.

    #432810

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Here is the song:

    Its Macedonian song genius. ;)

    Quote:

    Magla padnala v dolina

    Congratulations. Now you proved you dont have clue. Padnula is female form. Phonetic change, known as  -l vocalisation is hapening when we have l on end of syllable. Let's just for you split word in syllables: pad-na-la.

    Quote:
    Obvious Macedonian dialect.

    It was that hard to conclude?

    Anyway, here is real "Torlak" song.

    Stojane, sine Stojane!
    Poslušaj majku što zbori: <- zbori, not zboruva
    kupi si sivi vilovi,
    poori njivu golemu, <- accusative, non existant in Bulgarian
    posej si belu pčenicu, <- accusative again.
    namoli mobu golemu, <- accusative
    sve ćev devojke da dođev, <-devojke, not devojki
    Ljiljana moma će dođe! <- making of future with Serbian ће not with Bulgarian  ще
    Stojan si majku posluša: <- we again have "Bulgarian" accusative
    kupi si sivi volovi,
    poora njivu golemu, <-accusative
    poseja belu pčenicu, <-accusative
    namoli mobu golemu;<-accusative
    sve mu devojke dođoše, <-again not devojki
    Ljiljana moma ne dođe!, darn again future in Serbian way.

    Stojane, sine Stojane!
    Poslušaj majku što zbori:
    napravi češmu šarenu, —
    sve ćev devojke da dođev,
    Ljiljana moma će dođe!
    Stojan si majku posluša:
    napravi češmu šarenu;
    sve si devojke dođoše,
    Ljiljana moma ne dođe! <- dođe not dojde.

    Stojane, sine Stojane!
    Poslušaj majku što zbori:
    napravi crkvu u selu, —
    sve ćev devojke da dođev,
    Ljiljana moma će dođe!
    Stojan si majku posluša:
    napravi crkvu u selo, <- "Bulgarian" vocal r
    sve si devojke dođoše,
    Ljiljana moma ne dođe!

    Stojane, sinko Stojane!
    Poslušaj majku što zbori:
    polegni, sine, te umri,
    majka će prostre pokrovi,
    majka će sveće da upali,
    pa će da vikne da plače:
    tag' će Ljiljana da dođe!
    Stojan si majku posluša:
    poleže stojan te umre,
    majka si prostre pokrovi,
    upali sveću voštanu,
    poviknu majka da kuka.

    Ljiljana dvori meteše;
    frli si metlu iz ruke,
    pa si uleze u kuću;
    "Oj majke, majke, majčice!
    Pusti se glasi raznosav:
    da mi je Stojan umreja!"
    Uđe u baštu zelenu,
    nabra si cveće šareno,
    usuka sveću voštanu,
    odnese momku Stojanu,
    zapali sveću Stojanu,
    turi mu kitu na grudi:
    "Oj bože, bože, božice,
    ovakog mrca ne videh,
    što su mu usta na podsmeh,
    što su mu oči na pogled,
    što su mu ruke na pothvat,
    što su mu noge na poskok!"
    Tada si Stojan ripnaja,
    pa si uhvati Ljiljanu:
    "Pušti me, pušti, Stojane,
    da si otidem kod majke,
    da ti donesem darove,
    da ti darujem svatove!"
    Stojan Ljiljanu ne pušta!

    And guess what nowehere we have defintive article.

    Quote:
    1. You deleted kwo1's post and therefore my reply seems to be addressed to your post, not to his (which no longer exists). If you are a moderator delete all Serbs' postings saying Montenegro nation doesn't exist.

    You have been warned to stop discussion in this retrospect. But your answer was not deleted. continued spamming with one and same messge, even tough it is in this topic. Wantsche, if you dont want to read my warnings dont, but dont be surprised when I act as moderator.

    #432811

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Its Macedonian song genius. ;)
    Congratulations. Now you proved you dont have clue. Padnula is female form. Phonetic change, known as  -l vocalisation is hapening when we have l on end of syllable. Let's just for you split word in syllables: pad-na-la.
    It was that hard to conclude?

    Anyway, here is real "Torlak" song.
    And guess what nowehere we have defintive article.
    You have been warned to stop discussion in this retrospect. But your answer was not deleted. continued spamming with one and same messge, even tough it is in this topic. Wantsche, if you dont want to read my warnings dont, but dont be surprised when I act as moderator.

    This is a song from Vranje in Serbia, it is a real Torlak song.
    At least that's what its youtube uploader says:

    Magla padnala
    The fog came down
    song from Vranje (southern Serbia)

    It's isn't "padnUla", it's "padnAla"
    In Serbian it would be "pala". Do you have a both the imperfective and perfective l-participles? pao and padnuo (masculine singular), pala and padnala (feminine singular) in Serbian? Anyway it's padnAla, different from Serb padnUla. That's how it is called in Bulgarian, l-participle, no need to contradict me when you obviously don't know Bulgarian lingustic terminology. But you also don't know that Torlak dialects have pekl and pekal, instead of Serb pekao and you still contradicted me on this too. At this Torlak dialect has "eleceTO" which is elece (Serbian jelece) + the definite article.
    I am amazed how easy you Serb "moderators" ban something for allegedly "insulting" you when
    a) it is used as a pretext to stop me exposing you as having no arguments for claiming Torlak dialects as Serb
    b) you people (maybe even yourself) are constantly breaking the forum rules (i.e. attacking other Slavs, Montenegrins and Bulgarians and Croats and Bosnians, claiming they are Serbs and so on) and no moderator deletes their posts or bans them

    #432812

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    This is a song from Vranje in Serbia, it is a real Torlak song.

    No.

    Quote:

    At least that's what its youtube uploader says:

    Magla padnala
    The fog came down
    song from Vranje (southern Serbia)

    Consult uploader then. But its nt Vranje dialect. Stojanke, bela vranjanke is example of Vranje dialect.

    http://sr.wikisource.org/sr/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B5,_%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B0_%D0%92%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B5

    Have luck with finding definite articles. ;)

    Quote:

    It's isn't "padnUla", it's "padnAla"
    In Serbian it would be "pala". Do you have a both the imperfective and perfective l-participles? pao and padnuo (masculine singular), pala and padnala (feminine singular) in Serbian? Anyway it's padnAla, different from Serb padnUla. That's how it is called in Bulgarian, l-participle, no need to contradict me when you obviously don't know Bulgarian lingustic terminology.

    In Bulgarian or Serbian its not participle.

    Quote:
    But you also don't know that Torlak dialects have pekl and pekal,

    Of course I dont know. I had roomates from Niš, Vranje, Leskovac they never used word pekl. You are citing Wikipedia article which is citing non existing article in Croatian linguistic magazine.
    Why do I supose you are anything but ignorant?

    Quote:

    instead of Serb pekao and you still contradicted me on this too. At this Torlak dialect has "eleceTO" which is elece (Serbian jelece) + the definite article.

    Bu bu bu bu. Whats point of repating?

    Here is another song from Vranje:

    http://www.kodkicosa.com/slavuj_pile,_ne_poj_rano.htm

    It strangely has no defintive article and has declinsion.

    Quote:

    I am amazed how easy you Serb "moderators" ban something for allegedly "insulting" you when

    I am amazed how you want to speak about linguistics with such ignorance of it.

    Quote:

    a) it is used as a pretext to stop me exposing you as having no arguments for claiming Torlak dialects as Serb

    By using Macedonian songs?

    Quote:

    b) you people (maybe even yourself) are constantly breaking the forum rules (i.e. attacking other Slavs, Montenegrins and Bulgarians and Croats and Bosnians, claiming they are Serbs and so on) and no moderator deletes their posts or bans them

    Sockpupet accounts are not allowed. You are free to claim whatever you want, there is freedom of speech, but there is no freedom of multiple accounts.

    #432813

    Anonymous

    Our dear Todorow_wantshce obviously has no linguistic knowladge
    and is unfamiliar with the history of Torlakian speeches.

    I will mention Krashovans, they moved from Timočka Krajina to Caraș-Severin County by the end of the 14th century. After their moving their dialect was isolated from further shtokavian inovations and also from further 'balkanization' that took place in languages and dialects of the so called Balkansprachbund. The dialect of Krashovans, therefore, represent archaic Torlakian.

    Here's an example, shtokavian characteristics of that dialect are more than obvious:
    [img width=700 height=462]http://i.imgur.com/A9iSwrm.png” />

    [size=8pt]Josip Lisac, Hrvatska dijalektologija 1, Hrvatski dijalekti i govori štokavskog narječja i hrvatski govori torlačkog narječja, Zagreb 2003, 151[/size]

    #432814

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    No.
    Consult uploader then. But its nt Vranje dialect. Stojanke, bela vranjanke is example of Vranje dialect.

    This is a Vranja dialect. Stop making a fool out of yourself already!
    Here is what Bg linguist Stefan Mladenov says about Vranja and other Torlak dialects (Istorija na bylgarskija ezik, Sofija, 1979, pp. 360-362:
    "While in northern [Torlak] regions there is "u" in suffix syllables (stanUla, dignUla; vodutu, zenutu), in the Moravian dialect of Vranja this is replaced by "a", a thing that even Belic mentions as having originated from outside, from Macedonian dialects: stanA instead of stanU (3th person singular aorist)."
    And then he goes on quoting the Slavist Broch who had collected Torlak texts: "…in Pirot dialect we ought to be encountering: imAlo je mlad cOvek (!), ozEnio (!) se pa Imal mladu zEnu (!) instead of imAlo je mlad covEk, ozenIL se pa imAl mlAdu zenU". Mladenov rightly assumes Broch's Pirot dialect informers had forgotten to speak their own dialect purely and had begun to Serbianize it (he had no conservative informers from the countryside but only urban population). "Most Torlak dialects have no dynamical, musical accent like Serbian, Swedish and Norwegian, there are no long vowels, and also the morphology, syntaxis and word thesaurus are much more Bg than Sb." He also mentions the presence of definite article, the analytical way of expressing adjective degrees and many other Bg features, the first two are a clear proof not only of their Bulgarianness but also that these are no archaic Stokavian dialects (like Sb "linguists" are pretend), since there were no definite articles or analytical adjective degrees in "Old Church Slavonic" (Old Bg) and common Slavonic.

    Quote:
    In Bulgarian or Serbian its not participle.

    Again wrong, you are a complete ignorant. They are called l-participles in Bg grammars.

    Quote:
    I am amazed how you want to speak about linguistics with such ignorance of it.By using Macedonian songs?
    Sockpupet accounts are not allowed. You are free to claim whatever you want, there is freedom of speech, but there is no freedom of multiple accounts.

    The administrator should put you back into your place. First you ban man for no reason and then when I come back with a new account you ban me again for multiple accounts. That is low man, even for a Serb it's low.
    You are the one who is a complete ignorant, try searching the web for "magla padnala v dolina" and you will see it's a "Serbian" dialect from "Vranje", which even to a Serb nationalist like yourself sounds typically Macedonian. Stop making a fool of yourself, you have just recognized it sounds typically Macedonian, not Serbian, not knowing it "is" actually Serbian (according to your "linguists". Besides, the band does only Serbian and Vlach songs, Vlach songs from Serbia (they are probably Vlachs), no songs from Slavic Macedonian. That should have been enough to convince you the songs "is not" Macedonian.
    There are plenty of Serb webpages about this song, all of the say it is from Vranja.

    Other Vranja words: reknAla, grabnAla, metnAla
    (notice the eastern Bulgarian stress on the penultimate syllable, in Macedonian they would have been stressed on the 3rd syllable from the end, in this case the first one). That doesn't mean they are closer to standard/codified eastern Bulgarian, they are closer to eastern Bulgarian than to Serbian but they are closest to Macedonian, they are Macedonian dialects (especially if one takes into account that there are dialects in Slavic Macedonia with mobile stress, in the east, near Bulgarian border).
    Btw your greatest "linguist" Vuk SteFanovic Karadzic should have known SteFan is a Bulgarian word, in Serbian it's SteVan, Bulgarian language has kept a more original version of the Greek name. Just like Jovan is Serbian and Ivan Bg even though in Western Bulgaria it used to be a common name.
    And please get rid of "vazduh" and "vaspitanje" and replace it with uzduh and uspitanje (not that you have much of the latter though).

    #432815

    Anonymous

    omg 3 accounts in one thread ahahahhahaha so desperate XD

    #432816

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    omg 3 accounts in one thread ahahahhahaha so desperate XD

    And sad.

    image

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 22 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Slavorum

16 User(s) Online Join Server
  • Lyutenitsa™
  • LCaine
  • Stella C.
  • Luna Ingens
  • m1tric
  • Shvo