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  • #359479

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Serbian folk songs and some academics too. But they are in the minority.

    Quote:
    Apparently he switched sides at the Battle of Kosovo and fought against Serbia.

    I dont know for any historian in last 130 years who is supporting that story. Epic poetry does show him as traitor, but not for switching sides. They accuse him for not engaging Turks in deciding moment, after Serbian counterattack started losing moment.
    here:

    „Маче војску Српски кнез Лазаре,
    У Лазе је силни Србаљ био,
    Седамдесет и седам иљада,
    Па разгоне по Косову Турке,
    Не даду се ни гледати Турком,
    Да камо ли бојак бити с Турци;
    Тад' би Лаза надвладао Турке,
    Бог убио Вука Бранковића!
    Он издаде таста на Косову;
    Тада Лазу надвладаше Турци“

    and here:

    „А што питаш за проклетог Вука,
    Проклет био и ко га родио!
    Проклето му племе и кољено!
    Он издаде цара на Косову
    И одведе дванаест хиљада,
    Госпо моја љутог оклопника.“

    History tell us battle was statlemate or even Serbian tactical victory. But Serbian ruler was dead, his heir was 15 year old, Serbian feudal lords were divided even more than before battle. King Tvrtko of Bosna was engaged on other fronts, other son-in law of Prince Lazar, Đurađ Staratimirović Balšić became Turkish vasal, all that made Serbian position really hard. So Princess Milica and Patriarch Jefrem sued for peace. Sultan Bayazit demanded tribute, last of Lazar's daugthers and military support in further wars. Since startegicaly looking Serbs lost battle, this was defeat.
    On other hand Serbs did not lost their State. Serbia proper fell under Turks 1459, last Strongholds fell 1496.
    We for sure knew that in bazzlr participated Serbian feudal lords Prince Lazar Hrebeljanović and his son-in-law Vuk Branković, also Tvrtko I sent strong detachment under command of duke Vlatko Vuković. There was small contigent of Croatian heavy cavalry.

    #359480

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    imageKraljevina Srbija
    imageKraljevina Bosna

    Central Serbia (ruled by knez Lazar) was part of Kingdom of Serbia, with king Stefan Tvrtko I as Serbian king, this is wrong on your wiki.
    image                                                             

    imageMalteški vitezi
    WTF? Malta knights aiding Serbs? Never heard of this before.

    "Hrvaški Malteški vitezi"
    They probably think on unit led by ban Ivan Horvat.

    #359481

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Central Serbia (ruled by knez Lazar) was part of Kingdom of Serbia, with king Stefan Tvrtko I as Serbian king, this is wrong on your wiki.

    So Lazar was Rascian duke and vassal of Tvrtko I or something?

    #359482

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So Lazar was Rascian duke and vassal of Tvrtko I or something?

    I think Vlatko Vuković participated in the battle for Bosnia. And Bosnia was a kingdom in 1389.

    #359483

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So Lazar was Rascian duke and vassal of Tvrtko I or something?

    Lazar was veliki knez of Moravian Serbia, under supreme rule of king of Serbia – Stefan Tvrtko I (as descendent of holy Nemanjic dinasty, Tvrtko had right to be Serbian king, while Lazar didn't).

    #359484

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Lazar was veliki knez of Moravian Serbia, under supreme rule of king of Serbia – Stefan Tvrtko I (as descendent of holy Nemanjic dinasty, Tvrtko had right to be Serbian king, while Lazar didn't).

    I see. Thanks for the info. Anyway i always have problems with Moravska Srbija and Raška. I often thinked Moravska Srbija is modern Vojvodina while Raška is central Serbia but now i see it is different. I wanna see precise maps of these historical regions (realms).

    #359485

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I wanna see precise maps of these historical regions (realms).

    Is this the map?

    [img height=200]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Central_balkans_1373_1395.png/591px-Central_balkans_1373_1395.png”/>

    #359486

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Is this the map?

    [img height=200]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Central_balkans_1373_1395.png/591px-Central_balkans_1373_1395.png”/>

    Where is Raška?

    #359487

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Where is Raška?

    Not sure, maybe Realm of Vuk Branković? That's why I'm asking if this is the map.

    #359488

    Anonymous

    I found this is called Rascia. Велика кнежевина Србија / Рашка;

    image

    #359489

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Where is Raška?

    Raška, Zahumlje, Zeta (Duklja), Bosnia etc. are regions. The map is however showing political influence of lords, thus their realms. Region of Bosnia is not as big as the kingdom was e.g. Kingdom of Bosnia consisted at its peak, of Zahumlje, Usori, Soli, parts of Raška, and of course the Bosnia basin. The King of Bosnia was at that time however also the king of all Serbs, by descent, but not every ruler wanted to acknowledge his supremacy.

    #359490

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I found this is called Rascia. Велика кнежевина Србија / Рашка;

    image

    That area looks like the old "Serbian realms" before the tribes unified into the First Rascian Principality.

    BTW, does anyone know if Neretva / Pagania was ever under the direct rule of a serbian King?

    #359491

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    That area looks like the old "Serbian realms" before the tribes unified into the First Rascian Principality.

    BTW, does anyone know if Neretva / Pagania was ever under the direct rule of a serbian King?

    It was inhabited by Serbs according to the documents, and was under the rule of Lords of Zahumlje, however because of the proximity to the Latins, it fell under their sphere of influence in the time of the Turkish conquest.

    #359492

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I see. Thanks for the info. Anyway i always have problems with Moravska Srbija and Raška. I often thinked Moravska Srbija is modern Vojvodina while Raška is central Serbia but now i see it is different. I wanna see precise maps of these historical regions (realms).

    Original territory of Rascia could be described as Serbian area east from river Drina. By some historians, king Budimir Svetopelek also divided country on coastal side (Maritima) and Hinterland (Zagorje, Transmotana).
    Or as it is written in the chronicle of Doclean priest: "Surbiam autem quae et Transmontana dicitur, in duas divisit provinciam: unam a magna flumine Drina contra occidentalem palagam usque and montem Pini, quam et Bosnam vocavit, alteram vero ab eodem flumine Drina contra orientalem plagam usque ad Lapiam et [ad paludem Labeatidem], quam Rassam vocavit".
    Bosna and Rascia have common name Surbia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

    #359493

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    So Lazar was Rascian duke and vassal of Tvrtko I or something?

    Lazar was ally of Tvrtko. He did not recognise Tvrtko as King of Serbia. None of Serbian lords did it. Nor they did acknowledge legitimate Serbian King Marko Kraljević. Lazar considered himself Lord of Serbs and was lobbing to be elected as King or even Tsar. Epic poetry did consider him Tsar. His wife was from colateral branch of Nemanjići, his father Pribac was Serbian Prime Minister. Lazar and his sons-in-law controled most of Serbia, so he was not willing to acknowledge anyone abowe him.
    Battle of Kosovo was fought precisely because he did not wish to be somebodies vasal.
    But on other hand he and Tvrtko were close allies. Tvrtko was highly relaistic and know that dispite his blood connection with Nemanjići (Great-grandson of King Dragutin), he controled small parts of Serbia. Newerttheless he and Lazar allways acted together.

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