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  • #344899

    Anonymous

    In Slovene lands every village had (and most still have) their own vaška lipa, village linden tree, in front of a church and/or in center of a village. These linden trees are all ancient or very old. People would gather around linden tree for many festivals and village gatherings. Even today planting linden tree's is popular program in our schools, altho at least when i was in school, i don't know how it is today.

    Festivals were called with various names like rej pod lipo, raj pod lipo, etc. on which folk danced and celebrated on the day of local patron saint and other religious or non-religious festivities. There were also often local village sejmi, or fair's in english, next to or near linden tree's. These village linden trees were also used by srenja's, soseske and such which means communities or parishe's.

    Under lush branches of village linden trees the srenja's veča or better put vaški zbor, since term veča is to broad, which is a gathering of village elders or representatives who would resolve various disputes in a primitive judical manner. Primitive not in a negative sense but in a sense that it was rather undefined system passed down oraly and depened on customs of a certain area.

    Veča also defined which part of communal land called gmajna will be for each villager and/or how this communal land will be managed, like for example how and when certain communal land will be cultivated. They also decided when certain events will happen, organise communal aid if someone's house was burned or for other accidents. In times of need they also organised communal defense, especially with the rise of Turkish raids this was very important. These are just some of the thing they did beneath the trees.

    [img height=700]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Vrba_lipa.JPG”/>

    Stones under this village linden tree represent each village elder's or representative's seat and his power to vote for srenja during veča. This used to be typical throughout Slovene lands. It is from village Vrba, ironically vrba means oak while tree is linden. Vrba was home village of Slovene poet Prešeren hence it is very famous place.

    In any case as some elder villagers tell older stones used to be more nicelly carved so these ones are believed to be newer. The thing is Nazis considered this communal system Germanic so according to some elders they took originals. This might just be a modern folklore but i wouldn't exclude it. Regardless of this i made this thread preciselly becouse this suposes Germanic origin is quite appealing becouse so far i haven't seen any equalent's among other Slavs. Instead Germans seem to have similar ways;

    [img height=500]http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/70/Femegericht_Gemalde_F_Hiddemann.jpg”/>

    [img height=500]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3008/5870133496_1c9165a48b_z.jpg”/>

    Besides the sitting stones under trees Germans or at least some Germans especially those from Baden-Württemberg appear to have Tanzlinden or linden trees meant for dance festivals. Dancing under linden trees is therefore akin to our raj pod lipo. Only difference is their linden trees seem to be careful cultivate especially for dancing ritual. The end resoult can be fascinating. Examples of tanzlinde from Germany;

    [img height=500]http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/11649785.jpg”/>

    [img height=500]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Tanzlinde_Sachsenbrunn.jpg”/>

    [img height=500]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Peesten_Tanzlinde.JPG”/>

    [size=12pt]Now what do you think, is this Slovene tradition of Germanic or Slavic origin?[/size]

    #407298

    Anonymous

    Can be also common Indo-European or just Germano-Slavic.

    #407299

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Can be also common Indo-European or just Germano-Slavic.

    Yes i think most probablly theory is, it's a blend of Germano-Slavic costumes. Unless we can find equalents in other Slavic countries. Well there is similar tradition in Croatia in Zagorje. The Croat-Slovene leader of rebellion Matija Gubec and his compatriots established their Peasant's rebelion beneath his village's linden tree. However Croats in those parts have Germanic influence as well. Nowdays it is the so called Gubec's linden in his native vilage of Hižakovec;

    image

    image

    #407300

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Yes i think most probablly theory is, it's a blend of Germano-Slavic costumes. Unless we can find equalents in other Slavic countries. Well there is similar tradition in Croatia in Zagorje. The Croat-Slovene leader of rebellion Matija Gubec and his compatriots established their Peasant's rebelion beneath his village's linden tree. However Croats in those parts have Germanic influence as well. Nowdays it is the so called Gubec's linden in his native vilage of Hižakovec;

    I've meant that the the custom (at least in part) may stem for a common Germano-Slavic ancestry, nor a (relatively) modern Germanic borrowing, lipa is sacred in both traditions.

    But AFAIK the Germanic peoples' things assembled under linden trees, so that maybe the origin.

    #407301

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I thought that the the custom (at least in part) may stem for a common Germano-Slavic ancestry, nor a (relatively) modern Germanic borrowing, lipa is sacred in both traditions.

    But AFAIK the Germanic peoples' things assembled under linden trees, so that maybe the origin.

    Yes, true;

    The linden was also a highly symbolic and hallowed tree to the Germanic peoples in their native pre-Christian Germanic mythology.

    Originally, local communities assembled not only to celebrate and dance under a linden tree, but to hold their judicial thing meetings there in order to restore justice and peace. It was believed that the tree would help unearth the truth. Thus the tree became associated with jurisprudence even after Christianization, such as in the case of the Gerichtslinde, and verdicts in rural Germany were frequently returned sub tilia (under the linden) until the Age of Enlightenment.

    But makes me wonder why exactly;

    In old Slavic mythology, the linden (lipa, as called in all Slavic languages) was considered a sacred tree. Particularly in Poland, many villages have a name "Święta Lipka" (or similar), which literally means "Holy Lime". To this day, the tree is a national emblem of Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, and the Sorbs.

    What weight has linden among your kind? I heard similar explanations like above in Slovene ethnographic and other content too but never got concrete picture. If important and holly, did your folk preform dances or anything similar during various Saint's days?

    #407302

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    What weight has linden among your kind?

    To be honest – I don't know about my folk. I was raised a bit away of folklore (not away from Slavic identity, that must be clear; I simply live in a quite big city), although I have some foggy thoughts about lime. For me it has some connotations with refreshing, water, shadow, springs (in that order), but as I said, my knowledge is foggy at best (and may not represent a Silesian view).

    The July in Silesian is called lipiéń, by the way. Like in some other Slavic languages, of course :)

    #407303

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    To be honest – I don't know about my folk. I was raised a bit away of folklore (not away from Slavic identity, that must be clear; I simply live in a quite big city), although I have some foggy thoughts about lime. For me it has some connotations with refreshing, water, shadow, springs (in that order), but as I said, my knowledge is foggy at best (and may not represent a Silesian view).

    Ok, np. :) Altho i think your burger situation shouldn't be obsticle. :D I mean most of these costumes are mostly death by now. Since village assemblies have been replaced by modern administration they are obsolete. They started to cease around the end 19th century. Even linden dances are mostly defunct. Except in some areas especially among Austrian Slovenes it's still lively. So most info for this comes from book's of 19th century national awakers and ofc. contemporary chroniclers, spanning from middle ages to modern age.

    #407304

    Anonymous

    Well we have Zapis, although the trees mostly hallowed are Oaks and rarely Linden. Among other functions, as churches and temples, they were/are also used for folk assemblies. One of the most famous assemblies held under a Zapis was the Takovo uprising, which resulted in de facto liberation of Serbia from the Ottoman yoke, famous by the words "Here am I, here are you… War to the Turks" spoken by Knez Miloš Obrenović.

    [table]
    [tr]
    [td][img height=300]http://s13.postimage.org/3qfpz46o7/tg6v.jpg” />[/td]
    [td][img height=300]http://s9.postimage.org/csowfzjbj/Crkva_brvnara.jpg” />[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    – The historic site with the old Zapis, and a church

    #407305

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Well we have Zapis, although the trees mostly hallowed are Oaks and rarely Linden. Among other functions, as churches and temples, they were/are also used for folk assemblies. One of the most famous assemblies held under a Zapis was the Takovo uprising, which resulted in de facto liberation of Serbia from the Ottoman yoke, famous by the words "Here am I, here are you… War to the Turks" spoken by Knez Miloš Obrenović.

    Yes this is very unteresting. Did assemblies happen more often under trees?

    #407306

    Anonymous

    Yeah, they were common among Germanic people as you already mentioned, that's where the Þing would take place.

    It wasn't however the ONLY Gerichtsbaum, the oak was at least as much as common

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femeiche

    And there were others, like Elm, Spruce, Ash; south Germans sometimes also used pears, however linden trees usually had leading positions.

    My theory is that noone borrowed it from the other, it was simply abundant in the areas inhabited by Carantanians and Germanics, and since it had a very imposing and dense treetop, people ascribed it mythical proprieties (in fact the German word lind originally means "thick", since people were amazed at how thick it's branches were)

    #407307

    Anonymous

    True, tree of choosing among Germans depends on areas. However the element of putting stone stools beneath trees. This appears to be very Germanic?

    #407308

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    True, tree of choosing among Germans depends on areas. However the element of putting stone stools beneath trees. This appears to be very Germanic?

    I heard once linden trees were common in Bavaria (but that were the words of dr. Šavli, who was claiming on the wery same page that Bavarians and Slovenes are closely related and that they are not Germanic – same he claimed for Scandinavians). Though I wouldn't know. Beside, isn't the linden leave the official symbol of one country (NOT Slovenia)?

    #407309

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I heard once linden trees were common in Bavaria (but that were the words of dr. Šavli, who was claiming on the wery same page that Bavarians and Slovenes are closely related and that they are not Germanic – same he claimed for Scandinavians). Though I wouldn't know. Beside, isn't the linden leave the official symbol of one country (NOT Slovenia)?

    I don't know abou "original" Bavaria but Tanzlinde is widespread in Franken which is now part of Bavaria and in Baden-Württemberg. Well Šavli has wierd claims but the thing is he is partly right we are closely related to some degree. :) I mean Bavaria had many Slavic colonists in middle ages and likewise our lands had many Bavarian colonists. :D Cultural exchange was imminent. I am not saying however this tradition is 100% neccesarly Germanic origin. It could be blend or it may have just minor influence.

    #407310

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I don't know abou "original" Bavaria but Tanzlinde is widespread in Franken which is now part of Bavaria and in Baden-Württemberg. Well Šavli has wierd claims but the thing is he is partly right we are closely related to some degree. :) I mean Bavaria had many Slavic colonists in middle ages and likewise our lands had many Bavarian colonists. :D Cultural exchange was imminent. I am not saying however this tradition is 100% neccesarly Germanic origin. It could be blend or it may have just minor influence.

    He didn't mean it this way. He claims that Bavarians are a separate nation (like Albanci – with no equivalent) and they are related to the Vendish Slovenes (who are related with Scandinavians – Scandi). For such his proves base on words which are more or less similar in all Indo-European languages or just happened to be similar to some degree (but have also different meanings).

    #407311

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    He didn't mean it this way. He claims that Bavarians are a separate nation (like Albanci – with no equivalent) and they are related to the Vendish Slovenes (who are related with Scandinavians – Scandi). For such his proves base on words which are more or less similar in all Indo-European languages or just happened to be similar to some degree (but have also different meanings).

    Yes i have read his claims. Never mind him. :D Altho to be fair he usually uses real data but interprets it in his own wierd way. XD

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