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  • #347603

    Anonymous

    Were the R1a-M558 (CTS1211) carriers original Slavic-speakers? Or there can be included Z92, or even maybe M458?

    What are hypothesis… who contributed the most to the modern Slavic languages?

    #446323

    Anonymous

    original slavic speakers were most likely not just one haplogroup they would be a bunch of inbred freaks if that were the case. M458 and M558 are clearly slavic where as z92 may be uhr-baltic but im not sure about that one @Sviatogor
    belongs to this group and knows more about its origins. I2a1b is also clearly slavic in my mind. 

    #446326

    Anonymous

    R1a-Z92 and N1c-M2783 markers are present in Slavic and Baltic populations. Virtually absent in Finno-Ugric populations. Yes, N1c-M2783 is not typical for Finno-Ugric populations. Maybe in Estonians only.

    By Slavic population having mentioned marker I mean Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian. These four ethnicities account for at least 85% of Slavdom. The markers are common in Lithuanian, Latvian and some Germans who have east Prussian ancestry. Likely obtained from Prussians.

    So, these are Balto-Slavic markers.

    #446330

    Anonymous

    @Sviatogor
    N1c i doubt though was associated with Proto slavs as its found in low amounts in slavs not directly bordering baltic countries. 

    #446331

    Anonymous

    Hypothesised original Slavic home-land was near settlements of the Balts . North of Volyn and Zhytomir (Korchak culture) was Baltic as per archaeological evidence and numerous (80%) hydronyms. N1c1 tree is diverse just like R1a1. Some populations have Z280 , other Z93. N1c-M2783 is almost entirely found among Slavs and Balts. Estonians may also have it due their long association with Balts and Slavs.  On the diagram the cloud is labeled Balts. But it’s also present among Slavs . Of this particular clade Poles 3.5%, Ukrainians ~5%, Russians ~8% , Belarusians ~10%. Russians have many other clades of N1c1 too, whereas Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians have M2783. It’s unknown to me which clade of N1c1 Slovaks have.

    Image result for n1c1 tree

    But maybe it’s not originally Slavic. In Bronze and Iron age N1c1 were found in western Russia on the border of north-eastern Belarus.

    #446343

    Anonymous

    @Sviatogor

    >R1a-Z92 and N1c-M2783 markers are present in Slavic and Baltic populations.

    Yes. But also M558 is spreaded among Mordvins (Finno-Ugric people) about 15% the same case as it is spreaded in Russia. Who is then import this to other?

    #446344

    Anonymous

    Mordvins are Erzya and Moksha – two separate ethnic groups. Erzya in particular have R1a1a around ~39%- 45%. Since Erzya’s settlement is on lower Oka it’s been speculated they may have Baltic ancestry. Upper and middle Oka are ancient settlement of Balts.

    Baltic cultures on Oka river:

    Moshinskaya culture 4AD-6AD on upper and middle Oka river https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0
    Upper Oka culture of Iron age https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0

    Maybe Erzya acquired this marker from even more ancient people.

    #446355

    Anonymous

    @Sviatogor

    I read somewhere, when Kiven Rus was baptized, these pagans who wouldn’t want to convert, they ran to the Erzya people and assimilate in them. And that this contributed to their R1a-M558.

    #446377

    Anonymous

    @srdceleva

    A  Polish guy Michal who knows few things about R1a1a branch wrote the following on R1a-Z92:

    Also, the majority of Z92 among the Eastern Slavs is just one
    relatively young subclade YP569, likely of deep Baltic ancestry. Its
    frequency in Belarus and Russia seems to approach 10-12% of total Y-DNA.
    There are also some less common East Slavic (Post-Baltic?) subclades
    under Z92 like Z1907 (including its recently expanded Slavic subclade
    YP5611) and YP5520. In Poland, subclade YP569 is not only much less
    common (about 1-2%?) but it also constitutes a small minority of Polish
    Z92, and this is because the majority of Polish Z92 seem to be the
    so-called West Baltic (or Old Prussian) subclades under YP270 that are
    less common in the East (although there are also some specific subclades
    under YP270 that seem to be specifically associated with Eastern or
    North-Eastern Europe).

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