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  • #345714

    Anonymous

    I'm writing a short story about a group of ancient Slavic warriors, one of them has the nickname "the Thorn" and I want to use a word that isn't borrowed from any western language.  I know Serbs and Croats use the word "trn" for "thorn" but that looks like a borrowing.  Could it be a coincidence?  In Ukrainian and Russian we say "колючка" or "шип".  In Serbian they also use "трновито шибље" and "шибље" looks a bit like "шип".  Any ideas?  Thanks. 

    Btw, where can I find a full (not abridged in any way) list of Proto-Slavic words???  The kind linguists use. 

    #420806

    Anonymous

    Trn in Slavic languages is not a borrowing from thorn. They are just <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate">cognates</a&gt;. It comes from Old Church Slavonic trunu. In other languages: Sanskrit trnam, Greek ternax, Irish trainin.
    I don't know how and why it has lost its usage in Ukrainian.

    I'm looking for a good Proto-Slavic dictionary for a while. I've found only this one:

    image

    But I didn't find it very useful.

    I think Mratinjak can help us a bit.  :)

    #420807

    Anonymous
    #420808

    Anonymous

    This is the largest and most detailed etymological dictionary of Slavic languages published to date, the articles are sorted by reconstructed Proto-Slavic forms:

    http://essja.narod.ru/

    Commonly known by its abreviation ЭССЯ. I usually refer to it as "Trubačov's dictionary", because he was the editor-in-chief and the initiator of the project, but, unfortunately, he passed away in 2002, and the most recent volumes are edited by A.F. Žuravljov, who is also an excellent linguist. The dictionary is still being compiled and published, the most recently published volume (2008) ends on *orzstegajь. The link I posted lacks the last four volumes, you can find three of them in another place, but ftp links are apparently forbidden on the forum, so just copy and paste the links from this post.

    The dictionary nonik posted is also very good, albeit brief; it's largely based on ЭССЯ as well. I'm not aware of any other Slavic etymological dictionaries published in English (and I didn't even know about this one until some good people on this forum pointed it to me).

    For шип, see this:

    [img width=700 height=241]http://s11.postimg.org/o6k114l6r/gdggdf.png” />
    http://www.classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Vasmer-term-16344.htm

    I don't think it's related to шибље, which seems to be derived from *šibati 'to hit, to whip'.

    The best word you can use is, indeed, *tьrnъ. My advice is to "normalise" the spelling (like Trn, Tern or something like that), if you're going to use it in a short story. Or you can call him, for example, Trnec (PS *tьrnьcь, with a diminutive  :D).

    #420809

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Trn in Slavic languages is not a borrowing from thorn…I don't know how and why it has lost its usage in Ukrainian.

    The term hasn't been lost completely. 'Терен' (Teren) is the name of a plant – Prunus spinosa. Belarusian: Цёрн (Tsyorn), Russian: Тёрн (Tyorn).

    #420810

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    This is the largest and most detailed etymological dictionary of Slavic languages published to date, the articles are sorted by reconstructed Proto-Slavic forms:

    http://essja.narod.ru/

    Commonly known by its abreviation ЭССЯ. I usually refer to it as "Trubačov's dictionary", because he was the editor-in-chief and the initiator of the project, but, unfortunately, he passed away in 2002, and the most recent volumes are edited by A.F. Žuravljov, who is also an excellent linguist. The dictionary is still being compiled and published, the most recently published volume (2008) ends on *orzstegajь. The link I posted lacks the last four volumes, you can find three of them in another place, but ftp links are apparently forbidden on the forum, so just copy and paste the links from this post.

    The dictionary nonik posted is also very good, albeit brief; it's largely based on ЭССЯ as well. I'm not aware of any other Slavic etymological dictionaries published in English (and I didn't even know about this one until some good people on this forum pointed it to me).

    Thank you for the information about ESSJa. That's what I've been looking for.

    However, the link you posted sucks! I keep getting "Error 404". Either they are doing some maintenance or that Арнольд guy who created the site ripped someone off.  ;D

    I've found it in someplace else. All of the 34 volumes. It is a bit unhandy, since one has to browse instead of search, but I think I can live with that.

    #420811

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Thank you for the information about ESSJa. That's what I've been looking for.

    However, the link you posted sucks! I keep getting "Error 404". Either they are doing some maintenance or that Арнольд guy who created the site ripped someone off.  ;D

    I've found it in someplace else. All of the 34 volumes. It is a bit unhandy, since one has to browse instead of search, but I think I can live with that.

    [img width=700 height=170]http://s22.postimg.org/5mmzqaefl/image.png” />

    I think I should've mentioned that, sorry, my mistake.  :) And yes, it's in pdf everywhere.

    #420812

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I think I should've mentioned that, sorry, my mistake.  :) And yes, it's in pdf everywhere.

    That's what I expected to get, but I got this blank site with a title that goes like this: "���� ���. 11 ���. 000-001".
    In the source code I've found this: "Wow! Your browser does not support frames?". That's suppose to pop up only in browsers made in the last millennium. I tied both Chrome and IE.

    #420813

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    That's what I expected to get, but I got this blank site with a title that goes like this: "���� ���. 11 ���. 000-001".
    In the source code I've found this: "Wow! Your browser does not support frames?". That's suppose to pop up only in browsers made in the last millennium. I tied both Chrome and IE.

    Well, damn, I have no idea what is wrong then. It works perfectly fine from here, I just checked it.  ??? I use chrome btw, and I tried it with opera as well – it works fine.

    #420814

    Anonymous

    In Serbian: trnja or bodlja (from ubod meaning prick)

    #420815

    Anonymous

    You may find an inspiration in Slovak:

    Tŕň – a thorn -> in Russian read as Трррнь  ))

    Hloh – a thorny shrub -> in Ukrainian read as Глох (you read -h in the end of the word as Russian/Ukrainian х due to similarity pronouncing rule in Slovak grammar. In any case h is the same as Ukrainian г)

    Osteň – a thorn (of a rose or hedgehog) -> in Russian read as Остень (stress on О)

    Pichliač – a thorn (of a hedgehog or plant) -> in Russian read as Пихлъяч

    IMO Hloh and Osteň would look good in a story.

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