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  • #345656

    Anonymous

    In other words, which is the purest? 

    #420159

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    In other words, which is the purest?

    We need to agree on criteria measuring the purity of Slavic languages first.

    The number of foreign words ralative to those of Slavic origin found in comprohensive dictionaries would be a simple comparison. There are  foreign words used in everyday speech that may not be in the dictionaries.There are foreign influences on grammar and phonetics in Slavic languages. It's not always certain if a  sound evolved over time or borrowed from a language spoken in a neighbouring ethnicities. In other words, it'd be difficult to quantify the degree of purity of Slavic languages accurately.

    #420160

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    We need to agree on criteria measuring the purity of Slavic languages first.

    The number of foreign words ralative to those of Slavic origin found in comprohensive dictionaries would be a simple comparison. There are  foreign words used in everyday speech that may not be in the dictionaries.There are foreign influences on grammar and phonetics in Slavic languages. It's not always certain if a  sound evolved over time or borrowed from a language spoken in a neighbouring ethnicities. In other words, it'd be difficult to quantify the degree of purity of Slavic languages accurately.

    Also when you compare languages you must not forget on the dialect awrage on how pure they are too.
    ;)

    #420161

    Anonymous

    It's much easier to single out those languages with most borrowings. And not languages, dialects also. Ok, so: Polabian (extinct) had a quite big amount of German borrowings in its final, recorded stage (10%?). Kashubian and Silesian have more borrowings than standard Polish, there's a crazy Slovene dialect (Resian) which even has the word for “second” borrowed. I guess some South Slavic languages has many Turkic words.

    I didn't count inter-Slavic borrowings, in terms of these Russian heavily borrowed from (Old) Church Slavonic. Polish was borrowing from Czech in the Medieval Age, and later from Ruthenian. Ruthenian also borrowed from Polish. Bulgarian borrowed much of its vocabulary from Russian.

    AFAIK in Polish 1500 words of the most used 5000 are exactly inherited from Proto-Slavic (the rest mostly novel formations using Slavic roots), I think that the percentage would be similar in other Slavic languages.

    #420162

    Anonymous

    Czech.

    #420163

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Bulgarian borrowed much of its vocabulary from Russian.

    Literary Bulgarian did. The rest was from eastern bulgarian dialects. Their loss though, as they'll never know what
    "Мачка руча поганци" or "Дживгар клъца брабинци" means. :D

    #420164

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Czech.

    What about Croatian? They made a conscious effort to discard foreign words in favor of slavic ones.

    #420165

    Anonymous

    All and none.

    It's the basic lexic that matters. In that respect all Slavic languages are, more or less, equally distant/close to Proto-Slavic.

    #420166

    Anonymous

    As I learn it, I think Serbo-Croatian and Croatian specifically are the purest.  Which would be the least pure languages?  Would you say Polish and Slovenian?

    #420167

    Anonymous

    why so obsessed about "purity"?

    as for the most impure  ;D id say slovjak and maybe slovenian

    #420168

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    As I learn it, I think Serbo-Croatian and Croatian specifically are the purest.  Which would be the least pure languages?  Would you say Polish and Slovenian?

    Deinitely not Croatian,it has alot of Turkish words in everyday use,and thinking about it Serbian uses alot of these words aswell.
    I'm gonna say Russian or Ukrainian.

    #420169

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Deinitely not Croatian,it has alot of Turkish words in everyday use,and thinking about it Serbian uses alot of these words aswell.

    I was told that most of them were replaced by slavic equivalents in literary Croatian.

    I'm gonna say Russian or Ukrainian.

    They have some turcisms and german loanwords too. There's no way to tell without a dictionary comparison.
    I agree that an index where k = <loanwords>/<total number of words> is an oversimplification but it will give a general idea of the situation. Not that hard to write a program that can do that automatically. In fact, I'd do it if anyone's interested, just mention me in the references :D

    #420170

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I was told that most of them were replaced by slavic equivalents in literary Croatian.

    But not in everyday use.Each of the three dialects has alot of loanwords.Štokavski has Turkish words,Kajkavski has German words and Ćakavski has Italian ones.A kid in school learns that the lamp is "svjetiljka",but at home it still calls it "lampa".

    #420171

    Anonymous

    I'll also add that the borrowing percentage in the vocabulary cannot be the only factor in “purity” (if such a thing can exists and be not laughed at :) ). You have also grammar, word formation etc.

    The percentage of borrowings used in everyday life isn't big any Slavic language, I think. Of course we should exclude technical terms etc, they are pretty much international.

    I did a small check for Polish, I used the Swadesh list for Polish, run through the list and checked if a word is native or borrowed. The list consists of 207 words, and of these only 2 are borrowings (namely sznur and possibly kobieta), so less than 1%. I guess other Slavic languages have similar proportions.

    #420172

    Anonymous

    It highly depends if talk bout standards or dialects. The standard Slovene is quite puristic in nature. In this regard it is akin to Croatian model but lately this has been losened to smaler degree and some of most banal cases like typical Slovene names for months has been droped in favor of foregin ones sadly. However its still very puristic anyways. As for spoken Slovene as such it has a long history of using both domestic Slavic and foregin introducted words of same meaning. LOL actually you have multiple Slavic and non-Slavic origin words for one same thing. Now best example would be word forest. Those are our words for forest (PS; not only do some of these words mean forest they can also have another meaning so they are dualistic words. ;D);

    Gozd, Hosta, Gmajna, Boršt, Log, Gaj, Šuma, Les, Lesovje.

    Heck maybe there are more forest words. :P Anyhow 2 are definetly Germanic words but the rest are mostly domestic.

    This thing bout having both native words and loanwords at the same time is obvious already among early wrriters who mention this and even disscuss it. So for loads of loans there has always been native comparalels. There are also more modern invented words for newer things and in those cases it had a quite some degree of success. Or at least i use them quite regulary like its normal. But i must say that spoken language differates from village to village and indeed from person to person. So among broader family of ours (relatives included) which are all from same region we all speak bit differently. This is for many reasons like dialect (dialectical speeches are different even from village to village), education, etc. Anyways there is nothing unusual for me (or any other i know) to mention some thing with loanword and native slavic word in one conversation. This about sums it up.

    If you wanna know which Slavic language has the most Slavic vocabulary, uff this is hard but at least as standard languages goes you could do it if you have shyt loads of time. ;D Just read all Slavic vocabularies, arrange all words by they origin. Take a math on how much precentage of foregin words there is in each dictionary and voila. LOL

    As for other Slavic tounges i can't say much except that for Serbo-Croatian i will say this. I am no expert on it. I can speak it very lousy but i read it quite alright somehow and i believe that at least as far as standard goes Croatian is quite purist while Serbian not. Example; in Croatian history is Povijest and in Serbian its Istorija then map is Zemljovid in Croatian and Karta in Serbian. And so on and so on….. Remember again am talking bout standard here not spoken.

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