Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 110 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #341654

    Anonymous

    What do we know about White Croats, this early Slavic tribe?

    Read full story here: http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats-migrating-slavic-tribe/

    #350537

    Anonymous

    Excellent thread! Very interesting to read. Also interesting is that homeland of Croats is found in basically same place as Slavic ureheimat (SE Poland/NW Ukraine).

    #350538

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Excellent thread! Very interesting to read. Also interesting is that homeland of Croats is found in basically same place as Slavic ureheimat (SE Poland/NW Ukraine).

    Yeah, thought in the same time it is wierd to know your homeland is somewhere far away… can't imagine my people once lived there. Interesting to say the least.

    #350539

    Anonymous

    Interesting map of Poland under rule of King Chrobry:

    image

    Shows that White Croatia was still one of Western Slavic homelands (together with Polish and Czech/Slocak tribes) in 10th-11th century, even though already they had travelled Southward to Balkans 200-300 years earlier. I wonder what happened to White Croatia actually, why it did not become sovereign state like Poland, Bohemia or Moravia did.

    Another map (from that Ancient Poland thread) also shows Croats as being still in Ukraine:

    image

    But I disagree with this map in that as representation of Western Slavs, they should have also included Slovenians and Croats, but they didn't.

    #350540

    Anonymous

    [size=14pt]White Croats in lesser Poland & Czech Republic[/size]

    White Croats is the designation for one group of Slavic (Croatian) tribes which migrated to Dalmatia (the coastal part of today's Croatia) as part of the migration of the Croats in 610–641. Their homeland, defined by Edward Gibbon as "the inland regions of Silesia and Lesser Poland", has occasionally been referred to as White Croatia.[3]

    In the late 10th century, White Croats were one of the tribes ruled by Slavnik's dynasty. In 995 Czech warriors from Bohemia invaded the White Croat tribe and destroyed their capital at Libice. Soon after the Byelohravati were invaded by the new Polish kingdom. The last ruler, Soběslav was killed near Prague by Polish forces in 1004.

    It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of 20th century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the US born around Krakow who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality


    Famous White Croat:

    image
    Saint Adalbert, Czech: About this sound Vojtěch (help·info); Polish: Wojciech, (c. 956 – April 23, 997), a bishop of Prague and a missionary, was martyred in his efforts to convert the Baltic Prussians. He was later made the patron saint of Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and Prussia.

    Adalbert (Vojtěch, Vjačeslav) was born into a noble Czech family of Prince Slavník who were White Croats and his wife Střezislava in Libice nad Cidlinou, Bohemia. The Chambers Biographical Dictionary mistakenly gives his year of birth as 939.[1] His father was a rich and independent ruler of the Zličan princedom that rivaled Prague (see Slavník's dynasty). Adalbert had five full brothers: Soběslav (Slavnik's heir), Spytimír, Pobraslav, Pořej, Čáslav and a half-brother Radim (Gaudentius) from his father's liaison with another woman. Radim chose a clerical career as did Adalbert, and took the name Gaudentius. Adalbert was a well-educated man, having studied for about ten years (970-80) in Magdeburg under Saint Adalbert of Magdeburg. Upon the death of his mentor, he took the name Adalbert. Gifted and industrious, Adalbert soon became well-known all over Europe.

    Adalbert of Prague had already in 977 entertained the idea of becoming a missionary in Prussia. After he had converted Hungary, he was sent by the Pope to convert the heathen Prussians. Boleslaus the Brave, duke of Poland (later king), sent soldiers with Adalbert. The bishop and his followers – including his half-brother Radim (Gaudentius) – entered Prussian territory and went along the Baltic Sea coast to Gdańsk.

    It was a standard procedure of Christian missionaries to try to chop down sacred oak trees, which they had done in many other places, including Saxony. Because the trees were worshipped and the spirits who were believed to inhabit the trees were feared for their powers, this was done to demonstrate to the non-Christians that no supernatural powers protected the trees from the Christians. (See: Iconoclasm)

    image

    When they did not heed warnings to stay away from the sacred oak groves, Adalbert was executed for sacrilege, which his co-religionists interpreted as martyrdom, in April 997 on the Baltic Sea coast east of Truso (currently Elbląg, Elbing), or near Tenkitten and Fischhausen (see external link map St. Albrecht) It is recorded that his body was bought back for its weight in gold by Boleslaus the Brave.

    Slavník dynasty

    The Slavniks/Slavníks[1] or Slavnikids (Czech: Slavníkovci; German: Slawnikiden; Polish: Sławnikowice; Croatian: Slavnikovići) was a powerful dynasty in Bohemia during the 10th century. It governed Zličané, one of the oldest Czech tribes. The center of the principality was the gord of Libice located at the confluence of the rivers Cidlina and Elbe (Labe). The Slavníks competed with the Přemyslids for control over Bohemia and eventually succumbed to them.

    The founder of the dynasty was prince Slavník (†981) who lent his name to the whole family. He had consanguinity with the Saxon kings. His wife was Střezislava, a woman of remarkable beauty, allegedly from the Přemyslid house. Slavník had at least 7 sons, among whom two – Vojtěch (Adalbert) and the illegitimate Radim (Gaudentius) – later became saints. According to Cosmas' Chronicle, Slavník was a happy man all his lifetime.

    Slavník dynasty was supposedly related to the Babenbergs, the Přemyslid dynasty, and was friendly with the Polish kings.

    Slavník's heir was his son Soběslav who rushed to consolidate the princedom's independence. For instance, he began to coin money in Libice, known among numismatists as the silver senars, in spite of the primacy of Prague, and took other separatist measures. This was a direct challenge to Boleslav II, head of the Přemyslid family, who was determined to add the Slavniks lands to his kingdom. Since the Přemyslid dynasty could not afford any mighty rivals, Boleslav II with confederates stormed Libice and massacred all of the family on September 28, 995. They found and killed Slavniks even in a church. It is believed that murderers belonged to the Vršovci powerful Czech family. Only three Slavniki family members survived because they were not present in Libice at that time: Soběslav, Radim (Gaudentius), the later archbishop of Gniezno (Hnězdno) and future catholic saint Adalbert (Czech: Svatý Vojtěch, Polish: święty Wojciech), who damned the murderers[citation needed](Vršovci) in a church (the saint according to the legend was very impulsive) for their cruelty, then he escaped from Bohemia to Hungary and Poland, where he acted as a missionary, murdered by Old Prussians.

    In 996, when Strachkvas Přemyslid was going to assume a bishop office in Prague, he suddenly died during the ceremony itself. Some historians suggest[citation needed] that Strachkvas could have been poisoned by Slavniks survivors of the Libice massacre.

    The strength of the two dynasties' conflict is also demonstrated by the fact that Czech (Přemyslid) rulers initially refused to ransom Saint Adalbert's (Slavnikid) body from Prussians who murdered him, so it was purchased by Boleslaus I the Brave, king of Poland. All or some of saint Adalbert's relicts were in 1039 forcibly transported into Prague and buried in the St. Vitus Cathedral, some possibly hidden by Polish and, according to Roczniki Polskie, in 1127 were recovered in Poland and declared authentic, however some with reliquary were stollen in 1923.

    Slavník

    Slavník (died 981) was a Bohemian and White Croatian nobleman, the founder of Slavník's dynasty. He is said to have had consanguinity with the Saxon kings.

    He had several children by his wife Střezislava. Six of his sons are known by name: Soběslav (his heir), Saint Adalbert (Vojtěch), Spytimír, Pobraslav, Pořej and Čáslav. He had also a son named Radim (Gaudentius) by another woman (probably a concubine). According to Cosmas' chronicle, Slavník was a happy man all his lifetime.

    It is supposed by some historians, that either Slavník or his wife Střezislava had kinship with the Přemyslid dynasty, who were the rulers of Bohemia. Střezislava might have been a daughter of Vratislaus I of Bohemia, Slavník's relationship to the Přemyslid family could have been through his father Vok, possibly a nephew of Borivoj I of Bohemia.


    Oldest settlements in Bohemia(Checz republic) emerged by White Croats, Libice

    image

    Libice emerged in the ninth century as a center of Zličan rule under the Slavnik family, for a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. Archeological digs begun in the nineteenth century show that the Zličans' material culture was highly developed by the end of the first millennium AD. Libice began as a castle, and fortifications and the ruins of a stone church have survived to the present day. In 995 Libice was stormed by the Bohemian Duke Boleslav II (Přemyslid) and the Vršovci clan, and was annexed to Prague:

    White Croatia around Krakow, 10th century
    [img width=700 height=532]http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/chrobat.jpg” />

    #350541

    Anonymous

    White Croatia in present day Ukraine:

    image

    The once prosperous and rich Ukrainian village of Horvatka near Kyiv (note well: Horvat = Croat) disappeared overnight in 1937, together with all of its inhabitants, during Stalin's infamous collectivization, sharing the tragic destiny of millions of Ukrainians. The only witness is an innocent brook, called Horvatka, today Hrobatka (Hrovatka), about 70 km south of Kyiv. See "Marulic", 1998/2, p. 263, and also [Pascenko], p. 293. On the brook of Hrovatka (~30 kms long right confluent of Dnipro) there is a village bearing the same name Hrovatka, personal information (2010) by mr. Djuro Vidmarovic, former Croatian ambassador to Ukraine In the 1990s in Kyiv, Ukraine, a youth organization of scouts was founded, and named – White Croat (Bili Horvat; reported by Croatian ambassador Gjuro Vidmarovic in 2000)!

    #350542

    Anonymous

    Famous White Croat:

    Saint Adalbert, Czech: About this sound Vojtěch (help·info); Polish: Wojciech, (c. 956 – April 23, 997), a bishop of Prague and a missionary, was martyred in his efforts to convert the Baltic Prussians. He was later made the patron saint of Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and Prussia.

    Wow, now this I didn't know, that Wojciech was White Croat! Excellent posts, man, it's fascinating how much Croat heritage still can be found in Western and even Eastern Slavic lands. Tragic about that beast Stalin and what he did to Horvatka. Thankfully his poison didn't destroy more Croatian heritage Westward. I will add some things too on it.

    White Croats

    Constantine Porphyrogenitus (905-959), a Byzantine emperor and writer, mentions the state bearing the name of White Croatia. His description shows that it occupied a wide region around its capital Krakow, in parts of Bohemia, Slovakia, and Poland. The state disappeared in 999. St. Adalbert (Vojtech, 10th century) was a descendant of the White Croats, son of the White-Croatian prince Slavnik. He was spreading Christianity, education and culture, and to this end founded the benedictine monastery in Brevnov in 993. Also St. Ivan Hrvat, who died in Tetin in Bohemia in 910, was a son of White-Croatian King Gostumil. It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of this century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the USA born around Krakow (Poland) who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality. See US Senate-Reports on the Immigration commission, Dictionary of races or peoples, Washington DC, 1911, p. 40, 43, 105.

    White and Red Croatia in the new homeland, described in in one of the earliest known Croatian historical and literary texts – Ljetopis popa Dukljanina.

    Even today the descendants of the White Croats live in Bohemia. The surname Charvat is still rather widespread there. For example a director of the National Theatre Opera in Prague in 1990's was Mr Premysl Charvat. An outstanding person in part of Prague called Nove Mesto was Jan Charvat (+1424). In the same quarter of Prague there is a street called Charvatska street even today. Villages in Bohemia like Harvaci, Harvatska gorica reveal its early Croatian inhabitants.

    According to the Prague Telephone Book 1999/2000 there are as many as 516 individuals having names of possible Croatian root:

    Charvat and Charvatova (380, several pages…),
    Chorvat and Chorvatova (10),
    Chorvatovicova (1),
    Horvat (21),
    Horvath and Horvathova (79),
    Horvatik and Horvatkova (14),
    Horvatovic and Horvatovicova (2),
    Krobath (1),
    Krobot and Krobotova (8).

    CONCLUSION: Since the capital of Bohemia today (in 2000) has about 1,250,000 inhabitants, than assuming that each telephone subscriber has at least three closest relatives in the mean, we obtain that in a random set of 800 Prague citizens there will be at least one with Croatian name. Many thanks to my dear friend Mr. Vlatko Bilic for painstaking counting :)

    http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/et01.html#white

    #350543

    Anonymous

    Another interesting map:

    [img width=700 height=597]http://www.pgsa.org/images/AtlasMaps/Atlas2W.jpg” />

    Here is also excellent article, but it's in Polish. Name of it is "CZY JESTEŚMY CHORWATAMI?" (Are we Croatians ):

    http://www.muzeum.tarnow.pl/wydawnictwa/czytelnia/artykuly/kroacja.htm

    I don't have time to translate it, but it claims theory that Małopolska region (I post map from pre-1939) of Poland/Ukraine:

    image

    was in fact originally Croatian and that they were conquered and Polonized by Bolesław Chrobry.

    Myself, my paternal grandfather's entire family comes form this region, so chances are I have Croatian blood too. ;)

    You should try and read it Pentaz, and if not, try good translator, because this is very interesting article.

    #350544

    Anonymous

    It is very interesting that in Poland exist both White Serbia and White Croatia, so we were also neighbours in past.

    image

    In his 10th century magnum opus, al-Masvudi writes: the Bobr, Elbe and Saale
    rivers mark the borders of White Serbia (Muruj ahd-dhahab wa ma'adin aljawahir).
    One of the more authoritative modern studies, J. Marquart's outlines White Serbia's
    borders in similar terms: from the Bobr in the east, across the Elbe, to the Saale in the
    west (Osteuropaische Streißuege, 1903). At its height, most historians tend to place White Serbia's
    eastern borders deeper into later Polish territory. Gebhardt, for example, places Silesia
    and western Poland up to the Vistula within White Serbia's 8th century borders (L. A.
    Gebhardt, Geschichte aller Wendische-Slawischen Staaten, 1790). In Herkunft der Baltischen Wenden (1872)
    Quandt extends White Serbia's borders in the east to include White Serb concentrations
    at Opole, Poznan, Kaliscz and Gniezno.2 Noting the location of the Surpe Serbs
    recorded by Alfred the Great (871-899), Quandt is certain that the Serbs of Germania,
    Vielkopolska and Opole/Silesia are one people: The Surpe are one and the same as
    the Opolini and the people who live in Poznan, Kaliscz and Gniezno. It is interesting
    and should be noted that in recent time, viewing the facts of the matter from an
    entirely different perspective, H. Kunstmann traces Opolin and Polin to Balkan Slav
    roots (Wer waren die Opolini des Geographus Bavarus Bavarus, und woher kommt das
    Ethnonym Polonia?).

    #350545

    Anonymous

    In Polish, for Sorbs of Lusatia we still say "Serbowie", which actually is same thing as what we say for Serbs.
    Since Polish language is very purist (even though we have loanwords) since ages, it definitely means something.
    To my knowledge, White Serbia was located partly on today's Germany, Poland and Czechia, no?

    #350546

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    In Polish, for Sorbs of Lusatia we still say "Serbowie", which actually is same thing as what we say for Serbs.
    Since Polish language is very purist (even though we have loanwords) since ages, it definitely means something.
    To my knowledge, White Serbia was located partly on today's Germany, Poland and Czechia, no?

    Yes, those are approximate borders of White Serbia, but some scholars as Shafarik and other noted Slavists are certain that at one time White Serbia's borders reached the river Bug and beyond.
    It's probably because term Serb was widespread among Slavs.

    "In a mid-20th century study, the distinguished Polish historian, T. Lewicki identifies numerous place names with the Serb ethnikon in core and perimeter Polish lands (T. Lewicki, Konstantego Pofirogenety i Biali Serbowe wpolnocnje Polsce, RoH22, 1956). What is most significant is the fact that the greatest concentrations of the more than thirty-six ethnonymic Serb place names cited are found in the geographic center of the proto-Polish nation. More precisely, place names at and near Gniezno, the center of Vielkopolska or Great Poland, and Poznan, the first capitals of the Polish state and the seats of the first Polish metropolis and bishopric. An Old Slavic word, gniezno connotes nest, cradle, heart, core, nucleus. Recent evidence of Gniezno's primacy in Poland's historical-national consciousness is found in the words of Pope John Paul at Gniezno in 1979: Here I greet with veneration the nest of the Piast, the origin of the history of the motherland."

    #350547

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Another interesting map:

    Here is also excellent article, but it's in Polish. Name of it is "CZY JESTEŚMY CHORWATAMI?" (Are we Croatians ;)):

    http://www.muzeum.tarnow.pl/wydawnictwa/czytelnia/artykuly/kroacja.htm

    was in fact originally Croatian and that they were conquered and Polonized by Bolesław Chrobry.

    Myself, my paternal grandfather's entire family comes form this region, so chances are I have Croatian blood too. ;)

    You should try and read it Pentaz, and if not, try good translator, because this is very interesting article.

    I have, and understood it actually. Interesting indeed, i think many Poles indeed are ancient Croats which actually stayed to live in White Croatia, while another part of Croats migrated to present day Croatia. Same goes for Ukraine, i mean, by those researches Stiljsko was the largest east-Slavic settlement, larger than Kiev, so at one point Croats were probably an extremely large tribe which eventually got smaller and smaller by migrations coming to the present Croatia of 4.5 million people. But nevertheless very interesting brother ;) it's no wonder Croats, Poles and Ukrainians are in general brotherly nations, we share the same blood in one way or another.

    Thought about the subject of "are we all Croats" i don't know…i mean, Croats in general have their root prior to Slavic ethnicity creation while they were Sarmats to the part where they were Slavs and prolonged to this very day so we are for sure one very damn old Slavic nation but i wouldn't agree with the title. Croats were probably one of the bigger tribes back then, maybe even important since Roman emperor called Croats to settle the present Croatia to defend Roman empire from Avars… but it's fun, the more connection we find with other brotherly Slavic nations the bigger the brothers we all are and that's in the end the only thing that matters.

    #350548

    Anonymous

    Pentaz, what do you think about theories that Croats were originally Gothic/ Germanic or Persian tribe?
    Did Croatian name emerged among Slavs?

    #350549

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Pentaz, what do you think about theories that Croats were originally Gothic/ Germanic or Persian tribe?
    Did Croatian name emerged among Slavs?

    Both theories are in general a wishful thinking (even thought i don't understand why) but it has a lot to do with politics.

    The Germanic theory is…well…someone, Roman scholar mentioned Croats as an Gothic tribe, and if we understand that most of the people outside the Roman realms were viewed as barbarians and in general on end there isn't such really big difference between Slavic and Germanic barbarian people as they definitely culturally and psychically looked similar it's no wonder if mistake happened.

    As for the Persian theory, well…Persian is refereeing to Proto-Iranian theory, which is true and which isn't the case only of Croats but all Slavs in general. Slavs came to be first as a Scynthian and Sarmatian warrior tribes, living in Ukraine and later they mixed with Baltic populations and there at that point Slavs as an ethnicity under that name emerged and have spread across Europe to east, and west. So persian theory is false because it isn't called Persian theory because none of the Slavs have anything to do with persians, but it's an Sarmatian theory (which were considered proto-Iranian peoples, white people), which on end isn't only the Croatian case but of whole Slavs, it only happens that Croats actually have passed their name from those times to this very day.

    #350550

    Anonymous

    Now that topic of Sarmatism has come up, it is interesting to note also that among Slavs it was strongest in Poland (which then included Ruthenia – Belarus/Ukraine) and Croatia, while Sarmatia of ancient times basically was today's Poland and Ruthenia (both of which included white Croatia). This shows that it's very much in our blood if it re-appears thousands of years later.

    What is also interesting is that it made big re-appearance also in Hungary and Romanian states, meaning that despite now they are not speaking Slavic languages, we probably share common roots with them too, since they too had lands considered part of Sarmatia Magna (as per Roman historians). But OK, I am little bit off topic. Sarmatism topic exists here: http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,115.0.html if anybody is interested in learning more.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 110 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.