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  • #344868

    Anonymous

    Who are the “Bosniaks”?

    The new Slavic nation based on The “Bosniaks” or “Bosniacs” /”Bošnjaci”/ are a South Slavic people, living mainly in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Sanjak region of Serbia, with a smaller autochthounous population also present in Croatia and the Republic of Macedonia. The term Bosniak was in 1990-ties re-introduced to replace the term Mu[size=1pt]'[/size]slim and denotes a member of the Bosniak nation which is member of the constituent ethnic groups of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Majority of Bosniaks are also religious Moslems. Bosnian Mu[size=1pt]'[/size]slims are not ethnic Turks left behind by the Ottoman withdrawal. Rather, they are the descendants of the local Slavs, namely Serbs and to a degree Croats in the north-west of the country, who converted to I[size=1pt]'[/size]slam after the Mu[size=1pt]'[/size]slim Ottoman conquest of Bosnia in the 15th century. Bosniaks are typically characterized by their tie to the Bosnian historical region, traditional adherence to I[size=1pt]'[/size]slam, and common culture and language. Bosniaks belong per definition to the Slavic ethnic group, but their genetic make-up is a mixture of Slav settlers and descendants of pre-Slavic indigenous Vlach (Romanised Illyrian) tribes. Modern Bosna-Herzegovina people are Y-chromosome haplo groups in the three main ethnic groups. In addition, Celts and to a lesser extent Goths who spanned the Balkans for distinct periods, often encountering Vlachs, may have influenced today’s Bosnian population. There are more than two million Bosniaks living in the Balkans today. Both within the region and its Diaspora, Bosniaks are often noted for their unique culture, which has been influenced by both eastern and western civilizations and schools of thought over the course of their history. In the English-speaking world, Bosniaks are also referred to as “Bosnians” or “Bosnian Muslims”. The term ‘Bosnian’ is somewhat imprecise in this context, as it is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of the ethnic origin ( not only Bosniaks, but also Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats or any other group in the country). The CIA World Fact Book points out that “Bosnian Muslim” is an imprecise synonym for Bosniak, because in Bosnia, Bosniaks make up 48% of the population, but only 40% of the population is Muslim.

    Bosniak people speak the Bosniak or Bosnian language. This language only has minor differences with the Serbian language in writing and grammar. The Bosnian language has a number of Oriental words as well as Germanic words, not often used in the neighboring languages. Bosniaks – Bosnian Muslims who derived from the Slavic population in the Middle Ages when conferted into Islam upon Muslim Ottoman Turks oppression have used cyrillic alphabet known as stara Srbije /Old Serbia/. It was only a tiny number of Bosnian Muslims who also had two of their own unique scripts. The first was the Begovica /called Bosancica/, a descendant of local Serbian Cyrillic script that remained in use among the region’s nobility. The second was the Arabica, a version of the Arabic alphabet modified for Bosnian that was in use among nearly all literate Bosniaks until the 20th century. Both alphabets have almost died out, as the number of people literate in them today is undoubtedly minuscule.

    #406962

    Anonymous

    later sipac  :)

    #406964

    Anonymous

    Majority of Bosniaks are also religious Moslems.

    This was definitely written from a Serbian perspective. Anyways. I don't believe this to be true since there is little evidence of this. Most Bosniaks are secular and still celebrate Christmas with Christians and follow very few of the Moslem commandments. It is true that Islam has become more radical in Bosnia since Yugoslavia fell apart but most Bosniaks are not RELIGIOUS Moslems, just Moslem by tradition.

    Bosnian Mu[size=1pt]'[/size]slims are not ethnic Turks left behind by the Ottoman withdrawal. Rather, they are the descendants of the local Slavs, namely Serbs

    Very disputable. The degree of Serb lineage in Bosniaks comes mostly from converted Moslems from Serbia who settled in Bosnia. Eastern Herzegovina stayed mostly Orthodox and perhaps some parts of Eastern Bosnia were converted Serbs. The rest are probably not of Serb ancestry. It's combination of Croats , Slavicized Vlachs , Slavicized Saxons , Slavicized Turks, etc.

    slim Ottoman conquest of Bosnia in the 15th century.

    Conversion was a slow process. The Moslems became a large population in Bosnia only after about three centuries where even the peasent folk ( previously almost all Christian) were now also Moslems.

    The first was the Begovica /called Bosancica/, a descendant of local Serbian Cyrillic script

    Cart before the horse. Serbs didn't have their own cyrillic script until much later in history. The Bosnian cyrillic script had nothing to do with Serbian. Nice try though. The same 'bosancica' existed in Croatia as well which is why its also called 'Croatian cyrillic.'

    The second was the Arabica, a version of the Arabic alphabet modified for Bosnian that was in use among nearly all literate Bosniaks until the 20th century. Both alphabets have almost died out, as the number of people literate in them today is undoubtedly minuscule.

    First text produced in Bosnia in this Bosno-Arabic script was a play called 'Chirvat Turkysicsi'  :P

    #406965

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Cart before the horse. Serbs didn't have their own cyrillic script until much later in history. The Bosnian cyrillic script had nothing to do with Serbian. Nice try though. The same 'bosancica' existed in Croatia as well which is why its also called 'Croatian cyrillic.'

    It is no special Bosnian script, it is simply an older Cyrillic script which was used by orthodox,catholic and muslim peoples.
    The name ''bosancica'' is unjustified because it was not only limited to Bosnia. It was first used by Serbian rulers during 13th century and it was transferred to Bosnian palace during the rule of Tvrtko Kotromanic.

    #406966

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is no special Bosnian script, it is simply an older Cyrillic script which was used by orthodox,catholic and ****** peoples.
    The name ''bosancica'' is unjustified because it was not only limited to Bosnia. It was first used by Serbian rulers during 13th century and it was transferred to Bosnian palace during the rule of Tvrtko Kotromanic.

    Does anyone know who invented it?

    #406967

    Anonymous

    I would guess some monks.

    #406968

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Does anyone know who invented it?

    Court scribes of King Dragutin. It was used in Serbia as well. "Bosančica" is just cursive form of Cyrillic.

    #406969

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    This was definitely written from a Serbian perspective. Anyways. I don't believe this to be true since there is little evidence of this. Most Bosniaks are secular and still celebrate Christmas with Christians and follow very few of the Moslem commandments. It is true that ***** has become more radical in Bosnia since Yugoslavia fell apart but most Bosniaks are not RELIGIOUS Moslems, just Moslem by tradition.

    Very disputable. The degree of Serb lineage in Bosniaks comes mostly from converted Moslems from Serbia who settled in Bosnia. Eastern Herzegovina stayed mostly Orthodox and perhaps some parts of Eastern Bosnia were converted Serbs. The rest are probably not of Serb ancestry. It's combination of Croats , Slavicized Vlachs , Slavicized Saxons , Slavicized Turks, etc.

    Conversion was a slow process. The Moslems became a large population in Bosnia only after about three centuries where even the peasent folk ( previously almost all Christian) were now also Moslems.

    Yes of course I agree Bosniaks could also descend from Vlachs, Turks and Saxons as you claim, as well as Hungarians to add to the list. However their ethnos is based on a Slavic one, and there are only Serbs and Croats to pick from the Slavic ones, as it is also evident in their language. It is known where Croats dwelled in medieval Bosnia, and where Serbs dwelled in medieval Bosnia. It is also known from which people the first 'Bosniak' rulers, so to speak, descended from. It is not a mystery, all is written, one just has to read and use some logic. For example the father of Gazi Husrev-Beg, the father of the Bosniaks so to speak, was a convert from Trebinje. Trebinje is and was throughout the ages inhabited only by Serbs, it is known as one of the core ethnic Serb territories, so one can hardly assume it was a Croat or a Hungarian living there. The same would be if we would claim a convert from the Čazinska Krajina area in that time would be a Serb, since that area was in that time a Croat ethnic territory. Other examples are Mehmed Paša Sokolović, whose actions restored the Serbian Orthodox Church, I believe for a 'Bosniak' of Croat ancestry this would be a strange call, as well as apointing his next of kin, Makarije Sokolović as the new Serbian Patriarch. So Xekoslav, it is not probably, but some actually are evidented as such, while among Croats I personally cannot think of any famous 'Bosniak' which was of evident Croat ancestry, eventhough I believe there sure was some.

    It was not written from a Serbian perspective, it is written from a general perspective, which some accept others don't since it doesn't fit in their self-fabricated views. Claiming that Bosniaks have nothing to do with I[size=1pt]'[/size]slam is just false, since their identity is built upon that tradition. The sentence that majority of the Bosniaks are religious Moslems, means exactly that. The same as majority of Croats are religious Catholics, and Serbs Orthodox. It does not describe what their stance towards their tradition is, of course most today are secular like in whole of Europe.

    Xekoslav I would also ask you to keep the discussion civil and back it up by reference, not by irredentistic claims in the style of "Bosniaks are the Croatian Flowers", as well as claims as "I think", "I assume", "It was probably" etc. Bosniaks today are a separate ethnos as well as nation, that evolved from our respective ones some 500 years ago, a nation that has to be respected as any other nation, with their own distinct tradition, culture and to a degree language.

    #406970

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    It is no special Bosnian script, it is simply an older Cyrillic script which was used by orthodox,catholic and ****** peoples.
    The name ''bosancica'' is unjustified because it was not only limited to Bosnia. It was first used by Serbian rulers during 13th century and it was transferred to Bosnian palace during the rule of Tvrtko Kotromanic.

    I agree with this in part but it was also used by Croatian lords as well. I agree , I don't know if the name bosancica is justified but it was most prevalent in Bosnia that's why.

    #406972

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Not all of them. If we take the most famous ruler Tvrtko he is of mixed Croat and Serb ancestry ( and perhaps some foreign ancestry as well). He is more Croat by blood. His Serb side is from his maternal grandmother Elizabeth of Serbia who was daughter of Uros. His Croatian side is from his mother Countess Jelena Subic of the very powerful medieval Croatian Subic family. His parents were even married in the Croatian stronghold of Knin at the time in the court of the Subic lord. His father Stjepan Kotromanic never has his ethnicity defined. In fact , the whole Kotromanic line is undefined but it could very well be Slavicized Hungarian since the root 'Kotroman' could be from Hungary.

    His grandmother was Jelisaveta, (honestly how Serb could have name Elizabeth?) and she was daugther of Dragutin, not of Uroš. And paternal uncle and granduncle of Tvrtko implicitly expressed as Serbs, so he is half Serb and half-Croat. (no need to agree, but I allready posted you charters of Ninoslav and Stefan II).
    Tvrtko's fatehr is knez Radoslav. Stefan II did not have sons. So in summ stop arguing about Medieval Bosnia, please, you dont even know who is whose father, let alon who is of what ethnicity.

    I would not even comment here, but since you pulled Knin argument, and Šubići, just remeber, that Serbs have even stronger claims.
    Honestly what is point of all of this. Bosniaks are separate people, and no Serbs claims them to ourselves. But when it comes to medieval kings, why would we reneounce those who call themselves Serbs and kings of Serbia.
    Ironnicaly, all that charters were gathered, published and printed by Croatian historians, so you could not even accuse Serbs for chavinism and rest. :P Tomislav Smičiklas, and Franjo Miklošić gathered and published Rascian and Bosnian medieval diplomas.

    #406973

    Anonymous

    Actually we're both wrong. His father was Vladislav Kotromanic. Stephen Kotromanic was Tvrtko's grandfather who married Jelisavita ( which is Elizabeth). I meant to say paternal not maternal ( maternally he was Croatian).

    The first Serb in Tvrtko's ancestry is his grandmother which makes him 1/4 Serb. So he was 1/2 Croat , 1/4 Serb , 1/4 other. ;)

    #406974

    Anonymous

    Well, full brother of his father said he speaks Serbian. Paternal uncle of his paternal grandfather said he is ruller of Serbs. ;) In my math he is 1/2 Serb and 1/2 Croat.
    Yes I confused name, but not person. Tvrtko is son of Stefan II's brother.

    But my point was, no matter who was who back then, they are now different people and all of us should respect it. And we will never agree on who were that ancient Kings. I hope all of us (Serbs and Croats should see it). No need to discuss thats egment of history, since there is no possibility for agreement.

    #406975

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Eventhough a long text, I have to say once again, that you speak in assumptions that support your fabricated view, and has nothing to do with academic history. "Maybe a wolf ate a rabbit in a forest" is not an argument Xekoslav. Your whole claim is built upon that. When we speak we speak of reference, not upon assumptions. When no reference then upon valid and plausible premise, also not upon assumptions.

    References for Serbs in Bosnia, are the intitulations of the Kings in the medieval charters, as countless times mentioned. Such reference is hard historic evidence, no assumption, no fabrication, no grand Serbian chauvinist nationalistic clero fasistic pseudo alternative history…. But clear and simple historical written evidence. Which as it is obvious do not suit you, nor some Bosniaks because of political bias built upon the last civil war. Now just because you do not like us, doesn't mean history which supports our claims is false. What it means is that your point is from a biased chauvinist stance which discriminates everything which could in any sense support a view of the Serbian public. You speak sweet, but your sermons are chauvinist, eventhough you yourself are not bright enough to acknowledge it as such.

    Now for everything else, in general your claims are not supported, so find reference before claiming. Could be, we know, it is known, all proof, I assume, it is probable etc. is not referenced claim nor argument.

    Now we all agree Bosniaks are a specific ethnicity which is very similar to ours, however there is no historical proof that their ethnicity and identity existed prior to the Ottoman conquest as it is now. Apart from misinterpretations of historical charters by pseudo-historians, or amateur historians, without any proficiency in the language nor the age it was written, clinging on any word where the letters Bosn appear, without knowing the context. Serbian Orthodox church cherished the Serb identity, so it was preserved. The Croats preserved their ethnicity and identity as well under the Hungarians. Bosniaks however didn't, meaning that they lost it, and most plausible that there never was a separate Bosniak identity nor ethnicity prior to the Ottoman conquest, since the people of that region shared the same ethnological traits as all other Serbs and Croats depending on the region, spoke the same language, used the same script, even had the same names. In Bosnian Medieval Charters and Stećaks you will for example find names that are still in use amongst the Serbs of this day, like Milošević, Vukanović etc.

    One does not re-invent history. You may interpret it by your views, however every interpretation needs a referenced stance, which you lack by far.

    #406976

    Anonymous

    Actually , he's even less than 1/4 Serbian

    Lets break this down

    Tvrtko I Kotromanic ( Croat/Serb/Other 'Bosnian')  : Father Vladislav Kotromanic  , Mother Jelena Subic ( Croat)

    Vladislav Kotromanic ( Other) : Father Stjepan Kotromanic  , Jelisavita of Serbia

    Jelena Subic ( Croat) : Father Juraj II Subic (Croat) , Mother never mentioned. Juraj II was son of Pavle Subic I ( Croat) who himself might be of mixed Croatian/Hungarian background ( unconfirmed mother , could be a low ranking slavic/croatian countess of Slavonia too). Juraj II's son , Mladen III (called the 'shield of the Croats')  who was also Tvrtko's maternal uncle , also took Jelena Nemanjic , half sister of the famous Czar Dusan, as a wife ( neat how all this stuff is intertwined).

    Jelisavita of Serbia ( Serb , Turk , Hungarian): Father Dragutin , Mother Catherine of Hungary who was the daughter of a Turkish noblewoman. Dragutin himself was only half Serbian since his mother was Helena from the Anjou house of Hungary ( None of these are Bosnian origin by the way.)

    So if we do the math :

    Tvrtko = 1/2 Croat , 1/4 Other ( Hungarian , Turkish , possibly German) , 1/8 Serb ( Because Vladislav was 1/4 Serbian)

    Or am I missing something?

    #406977

    Anonymous

    Yes. You miss the point, Kotromanići were calling themselves Serbs (they stated their language to eb Serbian and subjects to be Serbs, which implies in terms of ethnicity they are also Serbs. All story about German origin is from work of Mavro Orbin in XVII century). If you want to continue this bickering I will follow it.

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