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  • #342370

    Anonymous

    Hi there guys,
    I'm new to the forum but I've taken a look at some of the stuff around and it's a pretty nice one. I even saw the Germanics had some forum of their own like this… anyways.

    I am Croatian and have been quite confused as to my peoples origins for some time. I was born back home but moved to Canada at the age of 5 and I like to learn about our origins and history since I feel distanced from home. I have been confused as to the origins because the first time I checked into it I saw lots of shit saying we were Iranian which I immediately saw as complete bs – all of the Croats I know, myself incl, look like regular white people… nothing to do with Iran. Later on I learned they revamped this theory to say we were Sarmatians which is pretty cool and makes more sense. Shortly after that though I heard we're not at all related to those Sarmatians… and that we're not even Slavic by genetics (like wtf?) but Illyrian. And NOW I hear that haplogroup I was updated (or something…) saying our I is only 2500 years old and came from north of the Carpathians (so… Slavic again? half Slavic half Illyrian/Dacian?) and that Illyrians are part of haplogroup Esomething. Also I recently read on here that we have haplogroup (or haplotype) EU7 and that we're closest related to Germans, Saami, and possibly Scandinavians.

    Ok like what the hell, right? I even heard Macedonians are closer related to Greeks than anyone thought and are more Greek than Slavic. I tried to look at my family but I seem to be of a mixed lot: my moms ENTIRE side is blonde/blue-or-green eyed nordic looking types while my dad is the darker, black haired southern European type (though even his brother, my uncle was like golden blonde on that side). I have green/brown (hazel) eyes, very white/reddish skin, and dark brown hair (though when I was a kid I was blonde and even now most of my beard is blonde). Idk if those looks can tell you whether I'm more Slavic or w.e. Just thought I'd post that to show how mixed we are. But I'm curious as to whom we descend from?

    Are Croatians: Illyrians, Germanic, Slavic, Celtic – what? I know we're slavic by culture/language and I've read and learned a lot of old Slavonic stuff (cool northern barbarian types >:(). But I'm also curious as to genetics and whatnot.

    #366536

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Are Croatians: Illyrians, Germanic, Slavic, Celtic – what? I know we're slavic by culture/language and I've read and learned a lot of old Slavonic stuff (cool northern barbarian types >:(). But I'm also curious as to genetics and whatnot.

    Little bit of all of them, but predominantly Slavic and Illyrians. ;) All nations in Europe have admixture from other peoples in Europe different from their own metaethnicity though, not just Croatia. There is no pure Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Baltic, Finnic etc. nation.

    Original inhabitants of what is now Croatia were Illyrians. Genetics show that most common haplogroup frequency is one that originates from Balkans, therefore most Croats and Bosnians carry this marker. Dalmatia came under Roman rule, so surely there is Latin admixture there too from long time Romans ruled there. Later, Celts and Goths (Germanics) settled in this provinces of Rome, which genetics also show and toponyms also. Slavs (who assimilated Sarmatians) came down en masse from historical White and Red Croatia (South Poland, West Ukraine) and Slavicized what is now Croatia, bringing them language, identity and also sizeable frequency of genetics commonly found in Slavic peoples of East/West Slavic nations. More German admixture came from times of Hapsburg/Austro-Hungarian rule and later also came admixture from other South Slavs thanks to times of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and later also Yugoslavia. Don't forget also that Istria was once Italian.

    Therefore IMO, Croats are one great mix of various European peoples, but their language and identity is without doubt Slavic first and foremost, therefore I classify Croats as Slavs before anything else, though indeed historical influences left genetic/culture traces too.

    #366537

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:
    Are Croatians: Illyrians, Germanic, Slavic, Celtic – what? I know we're slavic by culture/language and I've read and learned a lot of old Slavonic stuff (cool northern barbarian types >:(). But I'm also curious as to genetics and whatnot.

    Little bit of all of them, but predominantly Slavic and Illyrians. ;) All nations in Europe have admixture from other peoples in Europe different from their own metaethnicity though, not just Croatia. There is no pure Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Baltic, Finnic etc. nation.

    Original inhabitants of what is now Croatia were Illyrians. Genetics show that most common haplogroup frequency is one that originates from Balkans, therefore most Croats and Bosnians carry this marker. Dalmatia came under Roman rule, so surely there is Latin admixture there too from long time Romans ruled there. Later, Celts and Goths (Germanics) settled in this provinces of Rome, which genetics also show and toponyms also. Slavs (who assimilated Sarmatians) came down en masse from historical White and Red Croatia (South Poland, West Ukraine) and Slavicized what is now Croatia, bringing them language, identity and also sizeable frequency of genetics commonly found in Slavic peoples of East/West Slavic nations. More German admixture came from times of Hapsburg/Austro-Hungarian rule and later also came admixture from other South Slavs thanks to times of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and later also Yugoslavia. Don't forget also that Istria was once Italian.

    Therefore IMO, Croats are one great mix of various European peoples, but their language and identity is without doubt Slavic first and foremost, therefore I classify Croats as Slavs before anything else, though indeed historical influences left genetic/culture traces too.

    First of all, hi everybody. :)
    To continue, Celts were here long before Romans and their "part" in our genetics is really small. By the latest studies, we are supposed to be natives of the Balkans who came here after the last ice age. During the time we received many influences as you have already stated. I would add a probable Avar part in our genetics also, since Slavs, coming to the Balkans also assimilated Avars into their genetic pool.
    Cheers!

    #366538

    Anonymous

    Thats cool I'm proud of our Slavic heritage – read the history of Great Moravia and was quite impressed. Also It's cool to know our ancestors came from Poland/Ukraine although I don't know much on the Illyrians. Apperantly they were just really warlike peoples… who basically got crushed on every front rofl XD (by Greeks and Italians).

    #366539

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Thats cool I'm proud of our Slavic heritage – read the history of Great Moravia and was quite impressed. Also It's cool to know our ancestors came from Poland/Ukraine although I don't know much on the Illyrians. Apperantly they were just really warlike peoples… who basically got crushed on every front rofl XD (by Greeks and Italians).

    Illyrians were regarded as bloodthirsty, unpredictable, turbulent, and warlike people by Greeks and Romans. They were seen as savages on the edge of their world.

    It was a stereotypical view of all northern "barbarians" and could represent a fearful impression of the Illyrians and their tenacity after fighting them. Polybius (3rd century BC) writes that "the Romans had freed the Greeks from the enemies of all mankind".

    According to the Romans, the Illyrians were tall and well-built. Herodianus writes that "They are tall and strong always ready for a fight and to face danger but slow witted".

    – not much has changed in the "western" perspective.

    #366540

    Anonymous

    were Illyrians related to Dacians and Thracians? I recall reading Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians and Greeks came from the Paleo-Balkans group which was probably a family group just like modern day Slavic or Germanic.

    #366541

    Anonymous

    @Druzhina

    You pretty much answered your own question. ;D
    According to historians and linguists, Illyrians, Thracians, Macedonians, Dacians (sometimes considered as Thracians) and Greeks were considered one group, Paleo-Balkans group.

    #366542

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    were Illyrians related to Dacians and Thracians? I recall reading Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians and Greeks came from the Paleo-Balkans group which was probably a family group just like modern day Slavic or Germanic.

    One should distinguish two prime European groups, the old Europeans (Nations of the Roman Empire) and the new Europeans (Imigrants from the East and the North).

    colloquially


      [li]Walachi, Vlochy, Vlasi, Welchy

    Old Europeans, Nations of the Roman Empire, romanised people like: Latins, Etruscans, Greeks, Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, Gets, Celts, Gauls etc… The word Walhaz comes from the Germanic language, borrowed in Slavic, and means "other", "stranger" but specifically for romanised people. One can still find this "old European" regions on the map "polish Wlochy=Italy, Welsh in Britain, Wallachia etc."

    [/li]

    [li]BarbariansNew Europeans, imigrants from the East and the North, nomadic steppe people or norse: Slavs, Germans, Avars, Pechenegs, Cumans etc… The word comes from the ancient Greek and means "mumblers", "strangers", "savages".[/li]

    The nations of Europe are a genetical mixture of this two pan-european groups, the old and the new one. With the downfall of the Roman Empire, the "New Europeans" took the dominant cultural and linguistic role. So one can say "Our fathers were Barbarians, but our mothers were civilized".

    #366543

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Quote:
    were Illyrians related to Dacians and Thracians? I recall reading Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians and Greeks came from the Paleo-Balkans group which was probably a family group just like modern day Slavic or Germanic.

    One should distinguish two prime European groups, the old Europeans (Nations of the Roman Empire) and the new Europeans (Imigrants from the East and the North).

    colloquially


      [li]Walachi, Vlochy, Vlasi, Welchy

    Old Europeans, Nations of the Roman Empire, romanised people like: Latins, Etruscans, Greeks, Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, Gets, Celts, Gauls etc… The word Walhaz comes from the Germanic language, borrowed in Slavic, and means "other", "stranger" but specifically for romanised people. One can still find this "old European" regions on the map "polish Wlochy=Italy, Welsh in Britain, Wallachia etc."

    [/li]

    [li]BarbariansNew Europeans, imigrants from the East and the North, nomadic steppe people or norse: Slavs, Germans, Avars, Pechenegs, Cumans etc… The word comes from the ancient Greek and means "mumblers", "strangers", "savages".[/li]

    The nations of Europe are a genetical mixture of this two pan-european groups, the old and the new one. With the downfall of the Roman Empire, the "New Europeans" took the dominant cultural and linguistic role. So one can say "Our fathers were Barbarians, but our mothers were civilized".

    Thats an interesting way of putting it – I think I heard that before myself. I also recall reading some quote how slavic and germanic are closer related but so were celtic and roman. idk if its true but I even recall seeing a european family language tree and near the bottom there was a germano-slavic language that split into germanic and balto-slavic. However even then the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians were considered barbarians (as were the Celts of course) so I guess you can say both ma and pa were barbarians.

    #366544

    Anonymous

    Slavo-Germanic languge never existed unless you take Indo-European as that language.

    #366545

    Anonymous

    maybe it was but I'm telling you, I saw a Germanic-Slavic language.

    #366546

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Thats an interesting way of putting it – I think I heard that before myself. I also recall reading some quote how slavic and germanic are closer related but so were celtic and roman. idk if its true but I even recall seeing a european family language tree and near the bottom there was a germano-slavic language that split into germanic and balto-slavic. However even then the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians were considered barbarians (as were the Celts of course) so I guess you can say both ma and pa were barbarians.

    Latins (founders of the Roman Empire) were "barbarians" aswell for some time, from the Greek point of view. All the "old Europeans" were "barbarians" at some point until they got civilized. Roman emperor Constantine the Great, father of the European Christianity was an Illyrian from present day Serbia (Naissus – Niš), in that period Illyrians were far away from being barbarians, they were a high-class Roman nation.

    The "New Europeans" were barbarians in the sense, that they never got civilized but brought the Roman Empire to a down-fall heralding the beginning of the "dark ages".

    #366547

    Anonymous

    Hey guys, just one more question. I recall reading the Illyrians were in the Balkans for tens of thousands of years (them and their predecessors'). Now one bit of confusion in regards to Croatian genetics is that I2a2 was updated (recently) saying the following:

    I2a1b1
    "Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."

    I'm often confused by genetics and history (because there is so much of it) so what does this mean? That south-Slavic i2 is mixed of proto-Balkans/Slavs? Or are we Dacians or did Illyrians originate in the north, in Slavic lands? I'm confused lmfao. This is one of the reasons I started this thread, I recall reading this and was like "wait, what?"

    #366548

    Anonymous

    All you need to know about Croats is that their a group of nations and ethnicity's which were Slavenized and. Half of them lives next to a big pond of salt water while the other half lives outside of Balkan.

    P.S.: Yeah and all their wines below 25 Euro price mark suck big negro testicles.

    #366549

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I'm often confused by genetics and history (because there is so much of it) so what does this mean? That south-Slavic i2 is mixed of proto-Balkans/Slavs? Or are we Dacians or did Illyrians originate in the north, in Slavic lands? I'm confused lmfao. This is one of the reasons I started this thread, I recall reading this and was like "wait, what?"

    I2a originated in South Eastern Europe, but was spread from Balkans right up to Northern Carpathians historically. This is why while Bosnia and Croatia has highest frequency, it can be found also in rest of South Slavic lands, Romania, Hungary, South Germans (Austrians and Bavarians) and even among Northern Slavs (especially among Ukrainians and Slovaks). But it isn't hybrid of Slavic and Paleo-Balkan peoples (this haplogroups is tens of thousands of years old, long before there were even Slavs or Paleo-Balkan peoples ;)).

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