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  • #344739

    Anonymous

    Why do south Slavic surnames end with ić? and why don't west and east slavic surnames have ić as well?

    #404104

    Anonymous

    All Slavic nations have folk with ič, ić surname endings but some more widespread than others. Henryk Sienkiewicz is example among west Slavic, only difference is these Slavic nations have different orthography.

    #404105

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Why do south Slavic surnames end with ić? and why don't west and east slavic surnames have ić as well?

    http://forum.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg27606.html#msg27606

    #404106

    Anonymous

    "-ić" comes from Common Slavic "-itjь", that changed into "-ic" in West Slavic, "-ič"/"-ич" in East Slavic. South is much more complicated, the "-ić" of Serbo-Croatian also comes from it, but for Bulgarian, I don't know. In Old Church Slavonic the suffix would be something like "-ištь"/"-ищь", but I don't know if it is preserved. All these suffices mean "belonging to" – and it's a patronymic ending.

    #404107

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    All these suffices mean "belonging to" – and it's a patronymic ending.

    Actually -ov / -ova means belonging to, or of his family. The suffix -ić means the descendant of, as in junior. Petar > Petrović (little Petar, or Petar junior, meaning descendant of Petar). It is a masculine diminutive form, same as the suffix -ek, -ko, etc. in other Slavic languages.

    #404108

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Actually -ov / -ova means belonging to, or of his family. The suffix -ić means the descendant of, as in junior. Petar > Petrović (little Petar, or Petar junior, meaning descendant of Petar). It is a masculine diminutive form, same as the suffix -ek, -ko, etc. in other Slavic languages.

    Is that like if you are called Petar, and you named your son Petar as well, would your son be called "Petrić"?

    #404109

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Is that like if you are called Petar, and you named your son Petar as well, would your son be called "Petrić"?

    Diminutive of Petar would be, Perica. Only as a surname patronymic it would be Petrović, regardless of what the child is called.

    #404110

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Actually -ov / -ova means belonging to, or of his family. The suffix -ić means the descendant of, as in junior. Petar > Petrović (little Petar, or Petar junior, meaning descendant of Petar). It is a masculine diminutive form, same as the suffix -ek, -ko, etc. in other Slavic languages.

    Yes, I've forgotten about the fact that the most widespread ending was made of two independent suffixes.

    In Old Poland, the ending was usually "-owic", like in Piotr Włodkowic (the defendant of pagan rights on the Constance council), it meant that the Piotr (Peter) was a son of certain Włodek (Włodzimierz). Later all the nobility had the suffix "-ski", and the suffix "-ic" was entirely for burghers or (I am not sure there) the peasants, and were later (due to the Ruthenian influence) changed to "-icz".

    #404111

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Actually -ov / -ova means belonging to, or of his family. The suffix -ić means the descendant of, as in junior. Petar > Petrović (little Petar, or Petar junior, meaning descendant of Petar). It is a masculine diminutive form, same as the suffix -ek, -ko, etc. in other Slavic languages.

    Not correct. Ov/ova means son or daughter of. For example, Borisov = son of Boris; Borisova = daughter of Boris. Ski is used denote origin in Bulgarian but rarely and not often in official capacity. Borisovski means from the family of Boris, for example. Any endings of "ic" is often seen as a sign of Serbianization in Bulgarian regions unless you're one of those Catholic Bulgarians from Banat.

    #404112

    Anonymous

    And no "-išt" ending in Bulgarian? :(

    And what about Macedonia and Slovenia?

    #404113

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    And no "-išt" ending in Bulgarian? :(

    And what about Macedonia and Slovenia?

    I think Slovenians also have -ic surname ending. No other variations except in mixed marriages. All Macedonians used to have only "ov/ova" ending until communist Yugoslavia when most of our surnames had "ski" added. There are still lots of Macedonians with "ov/ova" ending though. There's also some Macedonians with Ќ ending which is a new letter created in 1945 to represent Serbian "ic" ending that was forced on a lot of Macedonians by Serbian regime during their 30 year occupation 1913-43.

    #404114

    Anonymous

    There's also some Macedonians with Ќ ending which is a new letter created in 1945 to represent Serbian "ic" ending that was forced on a lot of Macedonians by Serbian regime during their 30 year occupation 1913-43.

    Are you sure that all these endings are Serbian in origin? Now I see that "Ќ" is how the Proto-Slavic "*-(i)tjь" would have developed in Macedonian.

    Quote:
    Not correct. Ov/ova means son or daughter of. For example, Borisov = son of Boris; Borisova = daughter of Boris. (…)

    The "-ova" ending (meaning "daugter of") seems to be a rather secondary development, the older state seems to be preserved in archaic Polish "-ówna" and Russian "-ovna", both meaning "daughter of". The "-owa" usually means "wife of". And it's rather means "belonging to". And the "-ov" would could be patronymic.

    #404115

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Are you sure that all these endings are Serbian in origin? Now I see that "Ќ" is how the Proto-Slavic "*-(i)tjь" would have developed in Macedonian.
    The "-ova" ending (meaning "daugter of") seems to be a rather secondary development, the older state seems to be preserved in archaic Polish "-ówna" and Russian "-ovna", both meaning "daughter of". The "-owa" usually means "wife of". And it's rather means "belonging to". And the "-ov" would could be patronymic.

    Ќ is not proto-Slavic. Direct transliteration is "kj" but Macedonians pronounce it like "ic". We never had an alphabet before 1945.  In the Balkans, -ic ending always means you are Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian or Croatian; never Macedonian or Bulgarian. Like I said before, "ic", Ќ, Kj, wasn't a natural development but rather artificial because Serbs wanted to Serbianize Macedonia and changing the surnames of Macedonians was one method. The addition of Ќ was a response to that because if we didn't create Ќ then we would have to use Serbian ћ and that would be in direct contradiction with Tito's plan to prevent Macedonia from being Serbianized.

    The "-ova" ending (meaning "daugter of") seems to be a rather secondary development, the older state seems to be preserved in archaic Polish "-ówna" and Russian "-ovna", both meaning "daughter of". The "-owa" usually means "wife of". And it's rather means "belonging to". And the "-ov" would could be patronymic.

    Well, we were separated for 500 years so it makes sense for things to have diverged a bit between us. It wouldn't be too surprising if the names being similar could have slightly different meanings.

    #404116

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Is that like if you are called Petar, and you named your son Petar as well, would your son be called "Petrić"?

    You would be Petrović. Petrić is matronym from female name Petra.

    Quote:
    "-ić" comes from Common Slavic "-itjь", that changed into "-ic" in West Slavic, "-ič"/"-ич" in East Slavic. South is much more complicated, the "-ić" of Serbo-Croatian also comes from it, but for Bulgarian, I don't know. In Old Church Slavonic the suffix would be something like "-ištь"/"-ищь", but I don't know if it is preserved. All these suffices mean "belonging to" – and it's a patronymic ending.

    No in OCS it would be ић. Ћ was acctually devised by Serbian monks in Middle ages. It had value of modern Serbian ћ or ђ. Before Serbian orthographic refpr of Vuk Karadžić it was: -ићь or -ичь. щ was originaly hard sounding št, not modern  Russian pronounciation šć.

    Anyway surenames on -ov, are just derived from possesive adjectivs of male gender nouns. Surenames on -in are derived from possesive adjectives of feamle gender nouns (grammatical gender). Surname on -ić were derived from deminutives. Of course during the times that was shifitng meanings, but i speak how it originated.

    There is another class of -in surnames in Serbian, but it is from origin. Alll will remember -in suffix for determining singular of names of nation. (Serbia: Србин, Бугарин, Арапин Russian: болгарин, литвин, англичанин).

    Petrov is completly analogus to English Peters (Peter's).

    #404117

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    And what about Macedonia and Slovenia?

    Quote:
    I think Slovenians also have -ic surname ending. No other variations except in mixed marriages.

    Both -ic and -ič are traditional in Slovenia. Endings with ič are attested before Turkish wars and its subsequent migrations. Surname Janežič is great example of domestic -ič. Naturally back then it was written in different orthography so there was no modern č but pronunciation was the same. Besides there are many words with ič endings. Example jeglič (also surname); :D

    [img width=700 height=525]http://hribi.net/slike1/Visoki%20Jeglic128061.jpg” />

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