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  • #344853

    Anonymous

    Hello there. This is my first post. My name is Septimiu and I am from Romania. I was wondering if Old Church Slavonic's own name was due to the fact that it was intended to serve the needs of Moravians and the Slavs around Thessaloniki and since both of these populations called themselves Slavs or was it due to the fact that the Slavs around Thessaloniki called this language Slavic? I mean the Serbs claim that the Slavs of Macedonia (including those near Thessaloniki) called themselves Serbs (besides Slavs of course) and they even have some proofs. Why wasn't Old Church Slavonic then simply called Serbian and not Slavic? Was it because the only common name of Moravians and Serbs was Slavs and Old Church Slavonic was intended to be the language for all Slavs? Or maybe the different Slavic ethnicities felt like it was a single language with more dialects rather than different languages (both Moravians and Serbs felt like they were speaking the same language)? Or maybe it's because the Slavs from Macedonia didn't have another ethnonym/glossonym but Slavs/Slavic just like Slovenians and Slovaks? I mean they didn't called themselves Serbs but simply Slavs. Why would Serbs then codify a different language, vernacular Serbian which is relatively different from Old Church Slavonic if they already had one? Did the Serbs feel like Old Church Slavonic had grown antiquated or hard to comprehend or foreign when they codified vernacular Serbian?

    #406607

    Anonymous

    We dont claim IX century Slavs from Thesalonik to be Serbs. Language was called Slavic becuase two codificators of it called it by name Slavic (словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ). Old Church Slavonic entered in nomenclature to distinguish earlier, original recension from 2nd Russian recension of it which is now used in Slavic Orthodox Churches, Church Slavonic (славе́нскїй ѧ҆зы́къ).
    Serbian language is for sure close to OCS being Southern Slavic, but Bulgarian and Macedonian are geneticaly closer to it. Anyway, those Slavs lived under Byzantine rule, never got chance to form their state, hence they lacked more specific ethnic identification, and language soon become unviersal for all Orthodox Slavs (and some Croatian parishes where Pope allowed use of it), so meta-ethnic name suited all users.

    #406608

    Anonymous

    I thought Serbs claimed all the Slavs from Macedonia were initially Serbs. After doing some reading there are some proofs for that dating from both before and after the 9th century. The thing is this Serbian Old Church Slavonic appeared foreign to the Serbs in Serbia shortly after it had been codified so they codified antother language, vernacular Serbian. My question was why did the codifiers of Old Church Slavonic called it Slavic instead of Serbian? They probably either took the name from the local population or used that name since it was common for both Moravians and Serbs. Did the Slavic population around Thessaloniki called itself Slavs and not Serbs? Or maybe they did call themselves Serbs but felt like they were speaking the same language with the Moravians?

    #406609

    Anonymous

    At that time all the Slavic languages were still mutually intelligible. OCS is from the last period of our common language.
    If I'm wrong somebody please correct me.

    #406610

    Anonymous

    Yes, OCS is a dialect of Common Slavic.

    #406611

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    At that time all the Slavic languages were still mutually intelligible. OCS is from the last period of our common language.
    If I'm wrong somebody please correct me.

    This is what I was thinking.  The closest equivalent that I could think of was Late Latin or Proto-Romance.

    #406612

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    I thought Serbs claimed all the Slavs from Macedonia were initially Serbs. After doing some reading there are some proofs for that dating from both before and after the 9th century.

    According to DAI, southern Serbs originaly settled arrea arround Thessaloniki. It is highly possible that significant portion of them stayed there. But, they mixed with other Slavs living there, and they did not participate in ethnogenesis of Serbian people. Which took time between 641 and 867 in few principalities.

    Quote:
    The thing is this Serbian Old Church Slavonic appeared foreign to the Serbs in Serbia shortly after it had been codified so they codified antother language, vernacular Serbian.

    Back then it was not foreign. It was different dialect, but clearly understandable enough even for Moravians, let alone to Serbs, who lived in neigbourghood, and which dialect was closer to it than Moravian. Serbian is codified in XIX century. Before that we used OCS and CS as literary languages.

    Quote:
    My question was why did the codifiers of Old Church Slavonic called it Slavic instead of Serbian?

    Because Thessaloniki Slavs lacked particular ethnic selfidentification, they were descendants of various Slavic tribes, also none tribe was strong enough to force it own selfidentification of others.

    #406613

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    According to DAI, southern Serbs originaly settled arrea arround Thessaloniki. It is highly possible that significant portion of them stayed there. But, they mixed with other Slavs living there, and they did not participate in ethnogenesis of Serbian people. Which took time between 641 and 867 in few principalities.
    Back then it was not foreign. It was different dialect, but clearly understandable enough even for Moravians, let alone to Serbs, who lived in neigbourghood, and which dialect was closer to it than Moravian. Serbian is codified in XIX century. Before that we used OCS and CS as literary languages.

    Because Thessaloniki Slavs lacked particular ethnic selfidentification, they were descendants of various Slavic tribes, also none tribe was strong enough to force it own selfidentification of others.

    Why is DAI? Excuse my ignorance. I'm not sure codified is the right term. I meant the vernacular Serbian which was used during the Middle Ages:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language#Middle_Ages

    "Prince Rastko Nemanjić (1174–1235), the youngest son of Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja, later left royal life and took monastic vows under the name Sava. During Sava's time as monk in Mount Athos, he wrote the Karyes Typicon, which was implicitly the first codification of the Serbian language.
    The second reform was during the rule of Despot Stefan Lazarević, of which Serbian orthography was known as Resava school."

    What I meant was that OCS was called Slavic and not Serbian by Serbian authors whereas both Chakavian and Shtokavian versions of the vernacular "Croatian language" were called Croatian by Croatian authors (also during the Middle Ages).

    #406614

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Why is DAI?

    De Administrando Imperii. :)

    Quote:
    I meant the vernacular Serbian which was used during the Middle Ages:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language#Middle_Ages
    "Prince Rastko Nemanjić (1174–1235), the youngest son of Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja, later left royal life and took monastic vows under the name Sava. During Sava's time as monk in Mount Athos, he wrote the Karyes Typicon, which was implicitly the first codification of the Serbian language.
    The second reform was during the rule of Despot Stefan Lazarević, of which Serbian orthography was known as Resava school."
    What I meant was that OCS was called Slavic and not Serbian by Serbian authors whereas both Chakavian and Shtokavian versions of the vernacular "Croatian language" were called Croatian by Croatian authors (also during the Middle Ages).[/quoted]
    Well, language of docuemnts varry. Liturgical books were written in OCS of Serbian recension (vocal l and r, just one half wovel etc), but again it was OCS.
    Legal documents were written in mixture of Serbian and OCS (Dušanov zakonik, if you want I could give you link to it ie if you know Serbian, you would be surprised).
    Concerning Croats, well they did not live in close interaction with other Slavs who used slavic literature (Serbs have Bulgaria, one of most importnant centers of OCS literature in neigbourghood, and  consciousness about Slavic literature, Slavic Apostles and rest was strong). In Croatia there was acctually belief that Blessed Hieronimus of Strydon (Latin V century writer) invented Glagolitic.
    #406615

    Anonymous

    I would appreciate if you send me the link to Dusanov zakonik. What was/is the half vowel in Serbian? J ? What's the other half vowel of OCS?

    #406616

    Anonymous

    ъ and ь were reduced vowels in OCS. First was hard sounding, second soft. Serbs got middle one, which was niether hard nor soft, and used to denot it.

    Zakonik cara Stefana Dušana

    Here it is. This edition is free for downloading, it was printed more than century ago.  :D

    #406617

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    ъ and ь were reduced vowels in OCS. First was hard sounding, second soft. Serbs got middle one, which was niether hard nor soft, and used to denot it.

    Zakonik cara Stefana Dušana

    Here it is. This edition is free for downloading, it was printed more than century ago.  :D

    Ok thanks. Are the half-vowels the same as reduced vowels?

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