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  • #342451

    Anonymous

    Until 19th century, name Windisch or Wendisch was a neutral term used for all Slavs who were in the border with germanic speaking people. German speaking population of Inner Austria called Slovene speaking population Windisch and generaly any Slavs were called Windisch.

    There are also many towns and villages in present day Austria and Slovenia with name Windisch. In Slovene lanugage Windisch translates as Slovene. Here are few examples of place names:

        Slovene                        German

    Slovenj Gradec      –  Windischgrätz or Windischgraz
    Slovenj Plajberk    –  Windisch Bleiberg
    Slovenska Bistrica  –  Windisch-Feistritz
    Slovenske Gorice    –  Windische Bühel
    Slovenska Marka    –  Windische Mark

    However this Windisch story gets realy interesting in late 19th century. This is period which gave rise to nationalism and ideas of ethnic states. During this period Slovene and German speaking Austrians became rivals practically over night. Because German nationalists in Habsburg lands wanted to Germanise Carinthia, Styria, and even majority Slovene speaking Carniola they intentionally changed meaning to the name Windisch.

    In early 19th century Windisch was started to be used as negative word for Slovene speakers. Short part of movie filmed according to real events in Carinthia. Here you can see how schools looked like for Slovenes;

    Vrnitev – Windisch is schirch!

    However German nationalists soon changed meaning of Windisch. Slovene language has some Germanic words like for example word Gams which is almost the same to German Gemse (chamois). With this few similarities of some words, German nationalist propaganda managed to convince many Slovene speaking people that they speak ancient Germanic dialect called Windisch and that other Slovenes who don't agree with this are traitors of Germanic people.

    In most Slovene lands this propaganda was total failure but in Carinthia it managed to get huge influence. Carinthian Slovenes had and still have lesser contacts with other Slovenes because of high mountain range called Karavanke or Karawanken in German. This lack of contact with other Slovenes had benefit for germanisation because many rural Carinthian Slovenes who didn't travel a lot didn't knew people on the other side of mountain range spoke same language.

    In 19th century word Windisch suddenly changed meaning and nowadays people who call them self Windisch are defenders of "sacred German culture" and they allegedly speak "ancient German dialect". Slovene speakers call them almost the same as Germans. Here are some examples how word Windisch is used by Germans and Slovenes;

    Windisch      –  Vindiš, Vindišarščina
    Windischer  –  Vindišar
    Windische    –  Vindiška

    This new Windischer concept managed to almost totally destroy Slovene minority and language in Carinthia because people who identify them self as Windischer usually don't teach their kids this "Windisch" language. Here are some statistical info's about Slovenes in Carinthia:

    Year; Number of Slovenes;
    1818 137,000
    1848 114,000
    1880 85,051
    1890 84,667
    1900 75,136
    1910 66,463
    1923 34,650
    1934 24,875
    1939 43,179
    1951 42,095
    1961 24,911
    1971 20,972
    1981 16,552
    1991 14,850
    2001 13,109

    What is realy interesting for Carinthian Slovenes is that WWI and nazi period during WWII didn't had much influence on Slovenes instead Windischer phenomenon during democratic Austria managed to destroy Slovene minority much more effectively than WWII. In fact Windischer concept is tool of some Austrian German nationalists and their parties for total Germanisation of Austria.

    Fact is that Windischer phenomenon is still very much alive today. See it for yourself. Here is first example where Windischer and Slovene reporter talk about Windisch and bilingual sings:
    Windischar 1

    Another Windischer:

    Windischar 2

    Here is video in Feistritz am Gail which was not long ago Slovene speaking village. Notice from 0.45 to 1.02 they sing in Slovene language and narrator says they speak in Windische dialekt;

    Burschenschaft Feistritz/Gail

    #368931

    Anonymous

    german nationalist propaganda managed to convince many Slovene speaking people that they speak ancient germanic dialect called Windisch

    What?? Slovaks were also called Windisch in German texts (Sloven – now Slovak, Slovenka, Slovensko, slovenčina, slovenský), so I absolutely don't understand how is it possible they think Windisch is a German dialect… that's nonsense. One example of a town in Slovakia :

    Slovenské Pravno (Slovak) -> Windisch-Proben (German) -> Tóth-Próna (Magyar)

    Even the Magyar translation of Slovenské and Windisch proves that Windisch means Slovenské – thus Slavic, not German. Propaganda in Austria must be really strong.

    A historical example : an aristocrat Stibor of Stiboricz (he was of Polish origin), who lived in a Slovak county in the Kingdom of Hungary in the 15th century, was described in the Chronicle of Council of Constance (1414-18) as "Styborius de Stiborich who comes from WINDISH LANDS BETWEEN THE MARCH UND TATRA" – Slovak counties = Slovakia.

    Windisch means Slovene, Slovak, Sorbian… Slavic… definitely not German.

    #368932

    Anonymous

    Svätoslava i know that other Slavs were also called Windisch. Thats why i begin thread with this;

    Until 19th century, name Windisch or Wendisch was used for all Slavs who were in the border with germanic speaking people. German speaking population of Archduchy of Austria called Slovene speaking population Windisch and generaly any Slavs were called Windisch.

    Why they think they are germans? Becouse they are brainwashed, thats why. Also this explains this phenomenon Svätoslava;

    In most slovene lands this propaganda was total failure but in Carinthia it managed to get huge influence. Carinthian Slovenes had and still have lesser contacts with other Slovenes becouse of high mountain range called Karavanke or Karawanken in german. This lack of contact with other Slovenes had benefit for germanisation becouse many rural Carinthian Slovenes who didnt travel alot didnt know people on the other side of mountain range spoke same language.

    Check out Karavanke on Google map. There you can see Karavanke are realy high and it is imposible to make any serious contacts with them. Except if you would be trader. I live near Kamnik which is very near Karavanke and i never had any live contacts with them.

    This is my view on Karavanke. Note that beyond these mountains is Carinthia and Carinthian Slovenes;
    image

    #368933

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Svätoslava i know that other Slavs were also called Windisch. Thats why i begin thread with this;

    Until 19th century, name Windisch or Wendisch was used for all Slavs who were in the border with germanic speaking people. German speaking population of Archduchy of Austria called Slovene speaking population Windisch and generaly any Slavs were called Windisch.

    I know it too, so I wanted to support this fact using another examples.

    Well, many other national minorities are located much more far away from their motherlands and have lesser contacts with them, but they still feel strong connections to the nations of which they originate. I would say Carinthian Slovenes are brainwashed first of all. Too bad.

    #368934

    Anonymous

    Yes i agree in first line they are brainwashed however i must say that Carinthia is mostly mountanious valley and has little contacts with Slovenia.
    [img width=700 height=413]http://austria-lexikon.at/attach/Community/Alles_%C3%BCber_%C3%96sterreich/Landkarte-%C3%96sterreich/K%C3%A4rnten/K%C3%A4rnten.jpg”/>

    I was talking with one Windischar on the internet and he was supprised that i can understand "whindisch". Maybe if we will let them know we are the same they might change their view.

    #368935

    Anonymous

    Maybe the Slovenian government and Slovenian cultural associations should start to take concern in them more than till now.  ;)

    Is their dialect easy understandable to an average Slovenian?

    #368936

    Anonymous

    Is their dialect easy understandable to an average Slovenian?

    Generaly yes we understand almost all. Especialy for my dialect its easier becouse we also use švapanje. In švapanje you pronounce endings la with va. Example;

    Standard Slovene;    Midva sva šla,  Ona je spila cel liter vina.
    Švapanje;                Midva sva šva, Ona je spiva cev liter vina.

    However problem with some Carinthian dialects is that they pronounce some words very differently and to other slovenes it sounds almost like West Slavic pronounciation. Here check out this praying;

    http://www.dismarc.org/index.php?form=display&oaiid=GNI%2F000000036996&db=0

    #368937

    Anonymous

    I found some songs in Carinthian dialect and you are right, it definitely has the Western Slavic sound, I can compare it to Czech (not completely though). I just realized that the standard Slovenian language is so much influenced by the sound of South Slavic languages.

    The word švapanje sounds cute, what's the meaning of it? This phenomenon is also well-known in Slovak language (especially in Western and Central Slovak dialects), like e.g. in my dialect I say Ďe'z bov? instead of literary Kde si bol? (Where have you been?). I'm not sure about Czech since I've never heard it within context of Czech language, but Moravian dialects uses it too (these dialects are close to Slovak language, especially to its Western dialectal group). And last the Polish language uses -ł which is the same as -v.

    #368938

    Anonymous

    I found some songs in Carinthian dialect

    I am big Carinthian fan can you provide me with links to these songs.

    I dont know why we use švapanje but it guess our ancestors started to used švapanje to sound like they are singing. I can talk much faster if i use švapanje and it sounds much more harmonious especialy during singing. Sadly švapanje is used less and less becouse of stigmatisation. If we use this kind of talking with people of higher status or in bigger public, people will mock us. Sad but true.

    Ďe'z bov

    I guess in Slovakia you have similar style of talking. Also some Styrians use similar word to your Ďe'.

    Instead of standard Kje si bil? in my region we say Ke's biv?. For women in standard Slovene it is Kje si bila? and in my dialect we say Ke's bva?. Some people in Slovenia also use Ke's bov? i dont remember in what region do they say like that but i think it is in Goriška region.

    I just realized that the standard Slovenian language is so much influenced by the sound of South Slavic languages.

    Yes standard Slovene has strong Serbo-croat influence becouse of the so called Ilirsko gibanje (Illyrian movement) in 19th century. Their aim was to create uniffied south slavic language.

    However most people dont speak pure standard Slovene becouse it sounds so silly when talking. Instead most town people speak mixture of dialect and standard language. In rural area people speak pure dialects or almost pure dialects.

    #368939

    Anonymous

    I browsed youtube, type there koroška.

    Similar style of talking to what/whom? Slovak language has officially 30 dialects, but I'm not sure what do you mean.

    #368940

    Anonymous

    Similar style of talking to what/whom?

    I mean using švapanje;

    Ďe'z bov? instead of Kde si bol?

    Ke's biv?  instead of Kje si bil?

    #368941

    Anonymous
    Quote:

    Similar style of talking to what/whom?

    I mean using švapanje;

    Ďe'z bov? instead of Kde si bol?

    Ke's biv?  instead of Kje si bil?

    Ah, yep.

    #368942

    Anonymous

    Povhec Karkoli boš reku ali pa naredu za nas dobrega da bi se povezali bolj in da bi nas bolj štekali ti naši zamejski Slovenci ti bodo pljuniliv obraz. Oni se imajo za Windish ( Kao za Nemce ) in ne za Slovence. Preveč imajo sprane možgane. Veš kaj je reku Hitler stokrat povej laž bo laž. Ko bošđ povedu stoprvič bo pa resnica.

    For all others who didn't undertand what i wrote back thear ( What ever you will tell or do for us do bound with others from our national minorities  they will spit you right in your face. Because they all think that they are German Windish and not some Slovenians. They are just to much brainwashed. You know what Hitler said: If you tell a lie for houndred times it will stil be a lie. When you will told a lie for first hundred time then it will be a truth) It's a crazy world  ::)

    #368943

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Povhec Karkoli boš reku ali pa naredu za nas dobrega da bi se povezali bolj in da bi nas bolj štekali ti naši zamejski Slovenci ti bodo pljuniliv obraz. Oni se imajo za Windish ( Kao za Nemce ) in ne za Slovence. Preveč imajo sprane možgane. Veš kaj je reku Hitler stokrat povej laž bo laž. Ko bošđ povedu stoprvič bo pa resnica.

    For all others who didn't undertand what i wrote back thear ( What ever you will tell or do for us do bound with others from our national minorities  they will spit you right in your face. Because they all think that they are German Windish and not some Slovenians. They are just to much brainwashed. You know what Hitler said: If you tell a lie for houndred times it will stil be a lie. When you will told a lie for first hundred time then it will be a truth) It's a crazy world  ::)

    It's called the complex of little nations (or balkanisation), when you look in the Balkans you have almost every 20 years a birth of one such nation that barely exceds a number of 2 milion since the middle of the 20th century.

    #368944

    Anonymous
    Quote:
    Povhec Karkoli boš reku ali pa naredu za nas dobrega da bi se povezali bolj in da bi nas bolj štekali ti naši zamejski Slovenci ti bodo pljuniliv obraz. Oni se imajo za Windish ( Kao za Nemce ) in ne za Slovence. Preveč imajo sprane možgane. Veš kaj je reku Hitler stokrat povej laž bo laž. Ko bošđ povedu stoprvič bo pa resnica.

    For all others who didn't undertand what i wrote back thear ( What ever you will tell or do for us do bound with others from our national minorities  they will spit you right in your face. Because they all think that they are German Windish and not some Slovenians. They are just to much brainwashed. You know what Hitler said: If you tell a lie for houndred times it will stil be a lie. When you will told a lie for first hundred time then it will be a truth) It's a crazy world  ::)

    Pozdrav tomo. Ja res je, ampak vindišarjev je dans zlo mav. Jst sm kontakteru prek e-pošte enga mlajšga avstrijca iz Zilije (Gailtal), k zna še ziljsko narečje in pravi, da jih je nekaj takih kot on, ki se zavedajo, da je to slovensko narečje in ga poskušajo oživeti, majo pa tud velik takih (predvsem starejših), ki še vedno pravjo, da so vindišarji. Je pa dejstvo, da so vindišarji bolje ohranili stare tradicije kot mi "ta pravi" slovenci. Pa tudi svoj narečje so dosti dobr ohranil napravm našim Slovenistancem. ;D

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